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Hondata said:
You saw this as an opportunity to discredit Prototype Racing.
Thats not true at all - I (Really), have merley pointed out that protoype racing have in the past provided simple "bolt on mods" which have;

1. not done the advertised and promised power

2. fallen to bits

3. seem devoid of proper warrenty support

This thread was turning into a nice back scratching excercise so I took the opportunity to point out that anything coming out of the PTR shed needs close examination.
 

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Wow, thanks for ruining a perfectly good thread. All I can say is if you guys weren't such newbies to Clubrsx, you wouldn't question Doug, Derek, or Ron. They are all extremely well respected in this community. Any questioning Shawn Church's dynapack???? Have you ever been to TOV (vtec.net)? I don't think I've ever heard anyone question his techniques or his dyno. I just don't see why 250 hp is so unbelievable to you guys. Ron hit that with his K20A2 w/Toda cams and the normal bolts ons, oh but I forgot that was on SC's crazy dynapack.

GO AWAY!!!
 

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starmax said:
Wow, thanks for ruining a perfectly good thread. All I can say is if you guys weren't such newbies to Clubrsx, you wouldn't question Doug, Derek, or Ron. They are all extremely well respected in this community. Any questioning Shawn Church's dynapack???? Have you ever been to TOV (vtec.net)? I don't think I've ever heard anyone question his techniques or his dyno. I just don't see why 250 hp is so unbelievable to you guys. Ron hit that with his K20A2 w/Toda cams and the normal bolts ons, oh but I forgot that was on SC's crazy dynapack.

GO AWAY!!!
Ah, as scuffers, says, they're pissing in their pond. I think they can handle it. It appears that they are ultimately questioning Church's dynapack (which is nuts). However, thanks to the presence of scuffers, it seems that the silly innuendo and insinuations of Really is over, thankfully, and that perhaps Shawn or Doug can put it to rest now that the accusations are laid out in the open.
 

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Bad dog!

Scruffy (I had a dog called scruffy once), this all comes down to your feeling that 'it seems to good to be true'? And your proof is that the lotus fuel system can't support 250 hp using a completely different engine?

Do you have any technical knowledge of how an engine works at all? Ever heard of brake specific fuel consumption? Simply put for a mechanical moron like yourself it is possible for one engine to make more power than another, and use less fuel doing so. Honda engines are well known for this low BSFC. Why do you think derek's car has a stock fuel pump? I've heard the car run and it sounds like an aftermarket pump to me. Also a while back hondata did an article on civic fuel pumps and i think they found the stock pump was good for over 400 hp. Buy hey, if it sounds not possible to your highly educated ear, then cast doubt upon it. I don't think you should try to win this arguement on technical grounds in the future as you quickly showed yourself to be an ignorant ass.

In the UK we probably have the highest level of engine technology in the world, most race engines for top motorsport are sourced from the UK for both formula racing and sports prototype racing, we are hardly the backwater you seem to think.
Oh god. You've lost the colonies, get over it. Some F1 teams are based in the UK for purely geographical reasons. These are production engines, not race engines. What is the highest output mass production 2 litre in the UK? In the US everything is driven from the aerospace industry. Is there a space industry in the UK? Oh yes, your dog of a space probe crashed on mars while our two landed safely.

Also, there's political things which Honda does which you are clueless about. Honda will only rate the K20A at 220 ps because they can not make it too close to the K20C at 240 ps. In the real world the K20A makes only about 10 hp less than the F20C, but then you would have known this with your extensive technical knowledge.

So how many K20A engines have you dynoed? What power did you get out of yours with bolt ons? Answer this: how many hours in your life have you spent on the dyno? Or do you just rely on your 'feeling', then write down the power?

Just give up - you can't back out of it now by claiming not to be smearing hondata. You saw this as a way to get at prototype racing, and jumped in so quickly that you did not realize you were trying to discredit a company with perhaps the best repuation amongst rsx owners.

You are not a credit to the UK, lotus owners, human kind nor intelligent life. Shame on you.
 

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Well either Shawns Dyno is wrong or the graphs on Prototype Racings web site have been messed with. http://www.prototyperacing.com/dynok20b.htm

But of course if you spend your whole time in unquestioning obendience being spoon fed by people who at the end of the day are selling you stuff then you would not follow the link above and figure that out for yourself.

All that anyone has done is suggest that there is a growing body of evidence that sometimes PTR kit simply does not appear to work as advertised, but this is immediately construed as a huge attack on "Doug, Derek, or Ron" - FFS calm down its only a diuscussion about engine mods not a discussion of some sort of cult.
 

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xennex said:
Oh god. You've lost the colonies, get over it. Some F1 teams are based in the UK for purely geographical reasons. These are production engines, not race engines. What is the highest output mass production 2 litre in the UK? In the US everything is driven from the aerospace industry. Is there a space industry in the UK? Oh yes, your dog of a space probe crashed on mars while our two landed safely.
Safety and space flight are not really a great discussion area - best not even go there.
 

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Ouch. I wish someone from our side (american, honda fan, whatever ;) ) wouldn't be as quick to throw even more mud. The name calling in your otherwise informative post is making me cringe.
 

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xennex said:
Also, there's political things which Honda does which you are clueless about. Honda will only rate the K20A at 220 ps because they can not make it too close to the K20C at 240 ps. In the real world the K20A makes only about 10 hp less than the F20C, but then you would have known this with your extensive technical knowledge.
.
So when honda run works cars with the K20A they also deliberately spend absolute fortunes on egnine development (but being careful of course not to make too much power in case it makes the FC20 look bad) when all they have to do is a few bolt on mods and piss all over the competition.

Never mind xennie, back to the real world.
 

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really said:
So when honda run works cars with the K20A they also deliberately spend absolute fortunes on egnine development (but being careful of course not to make too much power in case it makes the FC20 look bad)
Have you dynoed the F20C and K20A? Have you dynod enough engines to see the trend in power? How can you then comment on the power differential between these two engines if you have not? Or does knowledge just flow from you mouth like scruffies?

In japan, the civic type r and integra type r have the same engine. The only difference is the exhaust system in the integra to give the integra another few hp than the civic. Honda always manages the engine power so that the top models has the most power. In the us it is even more complicated as acura cars have to be better than honda. Hence the civic si in the us only gets a bastard k20a3 made from a k20a3 block & head with k20a2 intake, and it will never be given the k20a2. Understating power is common for honda. The acura tl (or cl?) made around 250 wheel hp when only rated at 265 crank. The new 2.2 F20C engine is rated the same as the old 2.0 F20C engines, but dynos way more. Of course, being experts in everything you already knew this.
 

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Amazing, so you are actually saying honda are running in TOCCA and other series down on power to maintain marketing differentials.

And the privateers have been pursaded by Honda to do the same thing?

So why when others engine dyno honda k20s they end up with figures not a million miles away from hondas (from a dyno that also produces reproduceable fiigures on other platforms including the FC20)?

Its so easy to convince someone when they so already want to believe that their automobile is the greatest thing ever. Take a step back and have a think about it.
 

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starmax said:
Wow, thanks for ruining a perfectly good thread. All I can say is if you guys weren't such newbies to Clubrsx, you wouldn't question Doug, Derek, or Ron. They are all extremely well respected in this community. Any questioning Shawn Church's dynapack???? Have you ever been to TOV (vtec.net)? I don't think I've ever heard anyone question his techniques or his dyno.
nothing personal or specific to the subject at hand, but that is a limited way of thinking. always question everything, even your own findings; it's the basis for the scientific method and the advancement of knowledge. keep an open mind, apply critical thinking, analyze every angle, assess and value everyone's opinions, no matter how skewed or incredible they may seem. never take any one person's statements as the word of god. don't be afraid to step on a few toes and provide constructive criticism or an alternate viewpoint. ultimately, reliable products and results are more important than egos. the truth eventually prevails.

and above all don't forget the old adage about arguing on the internet and the special olympics.
 

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rsxmachine said:
nothing personal or specific to the subject at hand, but that is a limited way of thinking. always question everything, even your own findings; it's the basis for the scientific method and the advancement of knowledge. keep an open mind, apply critical thinking, analyze every angle, assess and value everyone's opinions, no matter how skewed or incredible they may seem. never take any one person's statements as the word of god. don't be afraid to step on a few toes and provide constructive criticism or an alternate viewpoint. ultimately, reliable products and results are more important than egos. the truth eventually prevails.

and above all don't forget the old adage about arguing on the internet and the special olympics.
Very well said! In fact, I was trying to make the same point earlier but it became quite worthless. :thumbsup:
 

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rsxmachine said:
and above all don't forget the old adage about arguing on the internet and the special olympics.
Okay, I think I officially qualified with my last post...

 

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I agree that it is important to question new information, but i disagree with the way they slandered hondata. A company mind you, that is probly the most respectable in the k-series marketplace today. They have done nothing to deserve to be doubted until proven. While i agree that all results of there product should be independently verified, this wasnt a product that hondata was trying to sell. Doug or Derek, not sure which one, was just trying to give us all a chance to check out his new race car. He didnt say buy this and you`ll make this much hp. The only comment he even made about a product is that prototype's header is of a very good design which it is. Just looking at it it's easy to see its better then any off the shelf header today. Very long tubes, good diameter, equal length tubes, ect. I just dont think people should talk shit about hondata as well as some other respectable people because they didnt get all the power they wanted.

On another note, does anyone know if the k20a in the type R in britan is the same as that found in the JDM one. That could be what cause the discrepensies in power. I know the Aussie one is diff. Recheck your install as well. Dont jump dont their throats until you get all the facts striaght. Its a very childish thing to do.
 

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really said:
Well either Shawns Dyno is wrong or the graphs on Prototype Racings web site have been messed with. http://www.prototyperacing.com/dynok20b.htm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that dyno is for the Lotus header, not the EK (EG?) header.

As far as Prototype is concerned, yes, a reputation for putting out products that have some "issues" is reason to be concerned about new products, but the way I read this thread was that "some" people are trying to excessively slam PR, dragging Doug, Ron, others, and now Shawn Church down with them. But a reputation with one motor ISN'T a reason to put down all work that a particular company has done. I'm surprised that no one has dragged DC Sports into this. They get slammed all the time, and now that's continuing on these boards with thier new race header for the RSX. Personally, I'm not going to write them off until someone has problems with THIS particular application. Same goes for PR, or anyone else who is developing products and services for our car. They are all doing much more for this car than I am. Or just about all of us for that matter.

Hondata, I thank you for this dyno. I thank you for the K-Pro. But when you pop up here and claim almost 260 HP from just a couple of basic bolt-ons, you should have expected that someone was going going to stop and say "hold on". Now please don't gt me wrong, I'm not disputing this dyno. I'm on your side. But it is kinda hard to swallow the fact that you got so much power from said bolt-ons and tuning. Especially after all the money I've spent for what's currently available, and the amount of HP that it provided. I beleive you. I have no reason not to. And it get's me all tingly inside to know that the possibilties are there to get this kind of HP. It's about time that evidence is finally coming out to support all the claims that the K20 is the best thing that Honda has come up with. And the K-Pro is only going to further that claim. I just wish that I could find someone in south florida that I trusted to do that tuning.

It's great that PR has come up with a setup that makes that kind of power. Now time will tell if those parts will hold up in the long run, but at least we know that the possibilties are there. What started as a simple warning that there have been some rumors of PR products not performing as promised in the long run turned into a jumble of SHIT! It is to be expected that when you come in here and slander VERY respected members on this board (and whether it was meant as slander or not, I do not care. But that is the way it came across, whether intended or not), it should be expected that those involved are going to defend themselves. Actually I don't think they should have to. If you think we are all sheep, think again. Many on this board are sheep, but not all of us. Don't waste our time with all this crap. (boy do I miss the "Spam" smiley...) I respect what they offer us. I don't blindly follow it though. I'm smart enough to think on my own, and to use what they offer as information to better the decisions that I'M making.

Some people just don't get it.
 

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Yo
What gear are you in with that pic?

APEXiTypes said:
I think I saw 9850rpm :eek: All that from an internally stock K20A? :dontknow: Doesn't really matter to me, that was very impressive, as always. Keep up the good work :thumbsup:
 

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Sacrifice

I said

"http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1111


If so then perhaps the prototype equipment needs to be treated with a bt of caution as there does seem to be a lot of issues about... "

its concerning how any questioning of prototype racings abilities and products results in charges of dragging "Doug, Ron, others, and now Shawn Church down with them."

Why is that? OF course as soon as someone makes it an all or nothing arguement then sure there will be collateral damge but just because peoples backs are up does not get away from the real issues.


The dyno link posted above is merely pointing out that previous "results" from prototype can sometimes appear a bit weird and alied to that that it may not necesarily be Churches fault but the way in which certain companies present their figures. In assessing a product its rarely a waste of time to examine the companies previous claims and prodcucts.
 
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