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glory to the hypnotoad
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
UPDATE: Relief valve installed, flow tested, it works great!

As some of you know, I've been relocating my methanol injection system to the trunk. When I did this, I decided to re-flow test my methanol nozzle. My findings pissed me off to almost no end -- the flow rate was different than before. The Shurflo pumps that most methanol injection kits come with are great and all, but they tend to suck in regards to constant output pressure because they use an on demand pressure switch on the pump to basically duty cycle the pump on and off to regulate pressure. This produces very uneven spray bursts, and I've already had one of these switches go entirely out on me, and I think my 2nd one is going out as well -- I just had to shim it to get close to the flow I was getting before, and the duty cycle is crap as well.

Taking a cue from fuel systems, I decided to try and correctly regulate my water/methanol pressure from the pump on the output side via regulated pressure relief (back to the input/tank) to get a solid and consistent adjustable pressure at the nozzle without duty cycling the pump (in fact, I am going to block off the pump pressure switch port when this is done.) I found a neat little precision adjustable pressure relief valve on mcmaster.com that has bronze construction, stainless steel internals, and silicone rubber seals -- in other words, high quality sheeet that is methanol resistant.

I ordered the cheap (like $23) precision adjustable 25-175 psi methanol safe back-pressure relief valve via next day air (part #8088K14). I talked to a "tech guy" at mcmaster, and he seemed to think the pressure relief valve would produce pulses in my output like the duty cycle pressure switch that comes on these pumps because the valve I'm getting supposedly opens fully then slams shut, but their documentation in their catalog contradicts what he said, and specifically says these vales are designed for use on low output pumps to regulate output pressure and that they don't slam open and closed. I think he was confusing pop safety valves that are either full open or full closed with the relief valves that open gradually partially to maintain a set pressure on one side.

Pop-safety and relief valves protect vessels and piping systems from overpressure. Install as close as possible to the vessel or system they protect. Mount in any position.

Pop-safety valves automatically "pop" open at a set pressure and remain fully open as long as the pressure is above this point. When the pressure level drops back to the set pressure, the valves instantly close. ASME-coded pop-safety valves are factory set, tested, and sealed. They are National Board certified. ASME Section I applies to steam boilers and lines. ASME Section IV applies to low-pressure steam and water heating boilers. ASME Section VIII applies to compressed air or liquids, as noted.

Relief valves begin to open as the pressure increases past the set pressure, but require about 10% overpressure to completely open. As the pressure drops, the valves begin to close, shutting fully at approximately the set pressure.
Bronze EZ-Adjustable Relief Valves

Change pressures without gauges or guesswork. These valves are small in size and can be used with cold water for overpressure relief, thermal expansion protection, and low-capacity pump relief. They have a bronze body, silicone rubber seal, and Type 302 stainless steel spring. Connections: NPT male bottom inlet and NPT female side outlet.

Adjustable valves adjust between 50 and 175 psi in 25 psi increments. Factory set at 100 psi. Temperature range is 32° to 200° F. Precision-adjustable valves adjust to any pressure between 25 and 175 psi. Valves have graduation marks every 25 psi and are factory set at 125 psi. Temperature range is 33° to 210° F.
So, when it gets here tomorrow, I'm going to throw it in and try and get constant even spray at a rate I can dial in with a simple sub $35 mod. This is the route that I've seen some new fangled water injection kits go (output regulation, not duty cycle) and previously was something you could only do with the aquamist pumps that are not high enough capacity for many apps.

Stay tuned for more.
 

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Doing my clerk thing...
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in for findings!
 

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I'm extremly new to the s/c & water/meth scene. Would you suggest not relocating the mixture tank to the trunk or making a long run without this mod? Should users who have water/meth injection keep everything as close to the nozzle as possible?

I hope I understood the issue at hand well enough to ask the right questions. Thanks!
 

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glory to the hypnotoad
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I'm extremly new to the s/c & water/meth scene. Would you suggest not relocating the mixture tank to the trunk or making a long run without this mod? Should users who have water/meth injection keep everything as close to the nozzle as possible?

I hope I understood the issue at hand well enough to ask the right questions. Thanks!
Where the tank and pump are at really doesn't make a huge difference outside of temperature of the tank and line. I moved it to the trunk so there would be as little heat exposed to the stuff before it hit the intake. The extra tubing has next to no impact as long as you run either a high pressure check valve close the the nozzle or a solenoid valve close to the nozzle AND keep the tank above the nozzle and the pump below the tank (and it doesn't matter what relation the pump is to the nozzle as far as location height).

See, water/meth doesn't compress like air, so once you're lines are primed, and you keep the fluid in the lines up to the nozzle, the instant you turn the pump on in the trunk, there is no building of pressure or shooting air out -- it's just instant line pressure on the primed lines and instant nozzle spray. Keeping the tank above the nozzle ensures that the fluid will not back track down the lines and it will stay near the check valve or high pressure solenoid.

My pressure regulation mod is totally 100% independent from the location of the pump.

Things to remember:
Check valve or solenoid near the nozzle (as close as you can within reason) -- this keeps the water from draining out of your tank, through the pump and out your intake.
Tank above the nozzle -- this ensures your lines should stay full when the pump is off once the lines contain fluid.
Tank above pump -- this ensures water feeds to the pump.

The shurflo tanks are supposed to have built in check valves, but it's a non issue as long as the tank is above the nozzle -- gravity will do it for you, and the check valve and solenoid / check valve at the nozzle will keep your lines full.

Wayne
 

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Doing my clerk thing...
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I'm extremly new to the s/c & water/meth scene. Would you suggest not relocating the mixture tank to the trunk or making a long run without this mod? Should users who have water/meth injection keep everything as close to the nozzle as possible?

I hope I understood the issue at hand well enough to ask the right questions. Thanks!
my thinking is that running long tubes would contribute to spray pulses (this should be minimal and depends on the stiffness of the lines we run, and I think they are stiff as rated at 150psi), but the pump and valve affect it way more...
 

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Doing my clerk thing...
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my thinking is that running long tubes would contribute to spray pulses (this should be minimal and depends on the stiffness of the lines we run, and I think they are stiff as rated at 150psi), but the pump and valve affect it way more...
LOL need to run stainless steel line to ensure no pulse and add some bling to the engine bay :D
 

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glory to the hypnotoad
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Length of the hose will most certainly affect the pulse because there will be some sort of flex or stretch at that distance, so the duty cycle will be slightly different, but to what degree? Probably nothing of any importance -- I noticed nothing when I tried long lines and short lines, but I'm going to completely remove pulses to begin with by removing the on demand switch, so it really doesn't matter to me :)
 

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glory to the hypnotoad
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well, I bought the parts I needed in addition to the valve itself -- turns out I can't just T the input to the pump with the bleed from the relief valve, it will actually need to go back to the tank, so I'll have to tap the tank tomorrow. Oh well, minor setback.
 

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glory to the hypnotoad
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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Success!

Flow tested at 421cc/min. Spray pattern is solid and consistent -- no more epileptic crack head sneezing. Now the pump runs constantly without duty cycling on and off and my new pressure relief valve routes excess fluid back to the tank, leaving the pressure on the nozzle line whatever I set it to on the relief valve (just like a return line fuel system, or even the in tank regulator in the rsx.) The valve certainly didn't "slap around" like I was told it would, and I still can't get over how good the whole system sounds -- nice and smooth and the flow coming from the jet is perfectly uniform and a smooth stream of fluid bleeds back into the tank from the relief valve.

This is how these shurflow pumps should be setup in my opinion. The way snow, devil's own, cooling mist, and others do it is plain wrong -- but it's not really their fault, the pressure switches on the shurflo pumps were designed for "on demand" operation, not crazy duty cycles of 100 - 300 cycles a minute... ideally these pumps should kick on and run full blast for a while and then shut off when pressure is restored seconds, or minutes later. I've gone through TWO of these pressure switches over the years, and I am convinced the on demand pressure switch is simply not the right solution -- running the pump full blast and regulating the pressure on the output side is.

Here's a picture:




Here's how the lines are ran:

First we have a line coming from the bottom of the tank to the input side of the pump -- it is side of the pump closest to the camera. Next the output of the pump is routed to a "T" connector via a small 2 inch section of tube. One side of the "T" runs through the floor of the trunk/hatch and up to the nozzle. The other side of the "T" goes to the relief valve, and the output (relief) side of the relief valve goes back to the tank to bleed off excess pressure.

The relief valve was $23. There's about another $20 in brass parts from the hardware store. I used brass parts instead of "plastic" quick connects because some materials can be attacked by methanol, and the plastic connectors at my hardware store weren't clearly labeled as nylon or polyethylene, so I avoided them.

Extra parts needed:
(1) 1/4" compression "T" junction
(1) 1/2" MPT double sided nipple w/ hex nut center
(2) 1/2" FPT to 1/4" compression adapter
(1) 1/4" MPT to 1/4" compression elbow
(6) 1/4" compression brass tube inserts
(6) 1/4" plastic compression sleeves (ferrules)
(?) Some length of 1/4 polyethylene or nylon tubing -- vinyl will NOT work, it does not support the pressures used with water/injection.

The elbow is used for tapping the tank for the return line -- I drilled it just under the 1/4" pipe thread side, screwed it into the tank side, then used goop sealant around the threads to prevent leaks. The 1/2" pipe thread to compression adapters are used to attach the relief valve. The 1/2" pipe thread double nipple is used to attach one of the before mentioned 1/2" pipe thread compression adapter to the one side of the relief valve that has female threads. The brass tube inserts and plastic ferrules replace the brass ferrules that come with the compression fittings so you can compression fit the plastic tubing instead of copper or other metal lines. Make sure to teflon tape the threads of pipe threads that screw into other pipe threads. Make sure to not over-tighten the compression joints or the ferrules will get stuck and you will not be able to re-use them -- personally, I just keep a ton on hand when I'm doing stuff like this because they're 19 cents a piece, so I can tighten them a little tighter than is required to reuse the ferrule, but once again, not enough to destroy it. If you're unsure about any of that, just ask your hardware rep and they can help you out.

Wayne
 

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Success!

Flow tested at 421cc/min. Spray pattern is solid and consistent -- no more epileptic crack head sneezing. Now the pump runs constantly without duty cycling on and off and my new pressure relief valve routes excess fluid back to the tank, leaving the pressure on the nozzle line whatever I set it to on the relief valve (just like a return line fuel system, or even the in tank regulator in the rsx.) The valve certainly didn't "slap around" like I was told it would, and I still can't get over how good the whole system sounds -- nice and smooth and the flow coming from the jet is perfectly uniform and a smooth stream of fluid bleeds back into the tank from the relief valve.

This is how these shurflow pumps should be setup in my opinion. The way snow, devil's own, cooling mist, and others do it is plain wrong -- but it's not really their fault, the pressure switches on the shurflo pumps were designed for "on demand" operation, not crazy duty cycles of 100 - 300 cycles a minute... ideally these pumps should kick on and run full blast for a while and then shut off when pressure is restored seconds, or minutes later. I've gone through TWO of these pressure switches over the years, and I am convinced the on demand pressure switch is simply not the right solution -- running the pump full blast and regulating the pressure on the output side is.

Here's a picture:




Here's how the lines are ran:

First we have a line coming from the bottom of the tank to the input side of the pump -- it is side of the pump closest to the camera. Next the output of the pump is routed to a "T" connector via a small 2 inch section of tube. One side of the "T" runs through the floor of the trunk/hatch and up to the nozzle. The other side of the "T" goes to the relief valve, and the output (relief) side of the relief valve goes back to the tank to bleed off excess pressure.

The relief valve was $23. There's about another $20 in brass parts from the hardware store. I used brass parts instead of "plastic" quick connects because some materials can be attacked by methanol, and the plastic connectors at my hardware store weren't clearly labeled as nylon or polyethylene, so I avoided them.

Extra parts needed:
(1) 1/4" compression "T" junction
(1) 1/2" MPT double sided nipple w/ hex nut center
(2) 1/2" FPT to 1/4" compression adapter
(1) 1/4" MPT to 1/4" compression elbow
(6) 1/4" compression brass tube inserts
(6) 1/4" plastic compression sleeves (ferrules)
(?) Some length of 1/4 polyethylene or nylon tubing -- vinyl will NOT work, it does not support the pressures used with water/injection.

The elbow is used for tapping the tank for the return line -- I drilled it just under the 1/4" pipe thread side, screwed it into the tank side, then used goop seelant around the threads to prevent leaks. The 1/2" pipe thread to compression adapters are used to attach the relief valve. The 1/2" pipe thread double nipple is used to attach one of the before mentioned 1/2" pipe thread compression adapter to the one side of the relief valve that has female threads. The brass tube inserts and plastic ferrules replace the brass ferrules that come with the compression fittings so you can compression fit the plastic tubing instead of copper or other metal lines. Make sure to teflon tape the threads of pipe threads that screw into other pipe threads. Make sure to not over-tighten the compression joints or the ferrules will get stuck and you will not be able to re-use them -- personally, I just keep a ton on hand when I'm doing stuff like this because they're 19 cents a piece, so I can tighten them a little tighter than is required to reuse the ferrule, but once again, not enough to destroy it. If you're unsure about any of that, just ask your hardware rep and they can help you out.

Wayne
hey man i bought this kit... http://www.clubrsx.com/cr/AEM-30-3000.html...would it b the same process as yours.....

thanks
 

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glory to the hypnotoad
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
hey man i bought this kit... http://www.clubrsx.com/cr/AEM-30-3000.html...would it b the same process as yours.....

thanks
That system has a controller that varies the pump output via the electrical input to the pump. The relief valve setup would only do anything when the controller crossed into the threshold where the relief valve started to operate. In that setup, the relief valve would be replacing the functionality of the duty cycling pressure switch on the back of the pump, which would be left disconnected, but the controller still regulates the pressure and flow up to the setting on the relief valve, which may change over time as the pump ages.

Wayne
 

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meth injection....soon
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congrats man i hope to do the same after i get my car running again
 

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meth injection....soon
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does anyone know if 2003 civic si spark plug coil will work with a 2002 type s?
 

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meth injection....soon
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thanks
 

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That system has a controller that varies the pump output via the electrical input to the pump. The relief valve setup would only do anything when the controller crossed into the threshold where the relief valve started to operate. In that setup, the relief valve would be replacing the functionality of the duty cycling pressure switch on the back of the pump, which would be left disconnected, but the controller still regulates the pressure and flow up to the setting on the relief valve, which may change over time as the pump ages.

Wayne
thanks...
 

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That system has a controller that varies the pump output via the electrical input to the pump. The relief valve setup would only do anything when the controller crossed into the threshold where the relief valve started to operate. In that setup, the relief valve would be replacing the functionality of the duty cycling pressure switch on the back of the pump, which would be left disconnected, but the controller still regulates the pressure and flow up to the setting on the relief valve, which may change over time as the pump ages.

Wayne
since i got the controller ....do u still recomend wiring this system with kpro?....
cause this has boost safe out put...progressive pump controller....well i wont tell u more cause u know to this system more them me....

thanks again
 

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glory to the hypnotoad
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
since i got the controller ....do u still recomend wiring this system with kpro?....
cause this has boost safe out put...progressive pump controller....well i wont tell u more cause u know to this system more them me....

thanks again
Absolutely, if at all possible. If the controller has an arming input, use that as the activation output from k-pro and set the controller to spray before k-pro would (ie, a pound less boost or a few hundred less rpm), that way when k-pro fires it, it will most certainly, without a doubt, spray. Then you can tune fuel and ignition via k-pro for when the pump is on AND off -- that is why you have k-pro control, well at least ACTIVATE, it.

Wayne
 

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Absolutely, if at all possible. If the controller has an arming input, use that as the activation output from k-pro and set the controller to spray before k-pro would (ie, a pound less boost or a few hundred less rpm), that way when k-pro fires it, it will most certainly, without a doubt, spray. Then you can tune fuel and ignition via k-pro for when the pump is on AND off -- that is why you have k-pro control, well at least ACTIVATE, it.

Wayne
raz where u learn all this stuff...did u go to any special skool?....if u did i would like to know so i can attend.....
 
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