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Bitch where's my Money!
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
the k20 first showed up in mid 2001 in the 2002 model rsx. for the first couple years the simple aftermarket mods to the drive train were sufficient such as a LSD and clutch. by the time 2004-2005 came around the K20 was already quite commonly being tuned to 400whp+ in daily drivers and was already showing signs of drivetrain problems. now in 2007 those figures have nearly doubled with quite a few daily drivers like my car making 600-700whp and some pushing for even more power. while the aftermarket support for the motor has been great as proven by the monsterous numbers these motors are now generating but the trans has not seen the same love. Even at 400whp people were stripping these gears, sometimes with ease. the problems will only get worse as power keeps increasing.

i would like to see someone with the proper engineering experiance design a gearset for these transmissions that is designed for these high power figures. this gear set could help high power fwd cars on more then one front. for one durability can be GREATLY improved as im sure no1 likes to spend $ on buying the same OEM parts again and again knowing they are sure to just fail on you again. also this gearset can have much longer gearing (N/A guys need not apply:p ) helping the car not only spool larger turbos faster through increasing the load on the motor at low rpm but it also improves traction (on drag radials and slicks). im pretty sure the trans case can support the power with the right mods as even the B series has greatly improved durability with moddifications to the internals of the trans.

what would be involved in making the gear set. would you have make it a 4 speed so u can use a handcuff brace to keep them from being torqued apart and slipping? i would like to keep the 6 speed but im willing to compromise if the car is geared correctly. 1st can go to about 65-70mph, 2nd till 100. 3rd for till 140, and 4th to 170. this way the car is able to finish the 1/4 with less shifts but still be able to have decent mpg for us daily drivers. im well aware their is is alot involved in this but the K is only growing in popularity even in the old school hondas and someone must want to tackle this problem. in my eyes this mod would be a win win situation as you get improved performance and improved reliability.

some people may cringe with the thought of losing two foward motion gears but if u drive one of these high power cars you would learn that after all the fun smokey burnouts that the first 2 gears are completely useless anyways and sometimes even 3rd is. i know their is no magic gear set that works perfect for everyone since people use diffrent size tires and have diffrent redlines but maybe make a few diffrent ratios for each gear so people can taylor the trans to the motor they have built. someone could just use a lower FD and that would in affect would lengthen each gear but only to an extent and it does nothing for increasing durability so i see it as a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

it took b series guys many years to get daily drivers into the 10's on drag radials (some now even broke into 9's), lets see if the K can do it faster:laughing: :p :thumbsup:
 

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FS: K20A2 Head (C Sig)
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2,096 Posts
I think that gears of this quality probably have to either be forged (fast but hard to make die's and very expensive) or CNC'd (longass time to CNC each gear out of a coldworked piece of steel, at $60/hour). Ontop of all that you'd want each gear to be heat treated etc etc. It's just super expensive to make stronger gears w/the same amount of material. It might be cheaper to just make physically bigger gears (remember, stress = force / area), but they're still expensive to manufacture on a small basis.


Matt
 

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Bitch where's my Money!
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
oh i know that its going to cost some decent bucks but i still think in the long run you will save time and hassle for these high power projects, its costly on the b series trans and id think it cost about the same for us. think about the amount of money and time it will cost if u constantly chew up gear boxes, wouldn't u perfer the proper equipment to do the job right in the first place? this makes me think many will save alot in the long run. you also get to enjoy driving the car around more often because its being fixed far less.

the best part of all in this deal is the added strength is only a good side effect since the cars gearing is now better suited to use the engines power. this will result in drastically better 60' and 330' times. people would see some big drops in 1/4 mile times without even adding any more power. the extra time is picked up simply from better use of what power you already make.

to me at least id rather have 4 foward gears that are properly spaced out for the cars power and traction capability then 6 foward gears where the first 2 or 3 are useless around town and cost you alot of time reaching the 330' mark when your racing. who knows we may not even have to lose any gears.
 

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The Architect™
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it would be interesting to see these built, but I don't see it happening soon, also the market is fairly small for these so they would be extremely expensive. But if a company would come out with these they would have a corner on the market.
 

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Bitch where's my Money!
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
they will be pricey but could still be worth it. in the long run it may be more expensive not having these. the market is also quite large already and will be growing ALOT more since this could help anyone who builds any car with a K series in it. alot of the mid 90's hatchbacks and crx will now be swapping in the k series instead of be series as the supply of those motors has started shrinking.
 

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Internet Crack Dealer
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This has been a side project of mine for a while. It is a lot harder then you think to have companys start to make gears and full gear sets for Honda transmissions. The couple that I have talked to have told me that even if I pay for it they are not all that interested in doing it because of a very low return value. Libertys Gears does an awesome gear set for the b-series that has proven to work and go very fast without breaking. They have sold less then 10 sets for some reason and they are very well priced. It is the nature of this market sometimes, 100 people say they will buy and less then 10 actually do. I am working it personally with zero thought of getting my money back because I just want my car to go faster and not break. We have found the starting weak points in the 2nd and 4th gears and I am very sure that I can fix those it is finding out what is going to break after that.

Also, just designing a gear isn't the answer, it is the material that you use to make it. It is that material that takes the most time to figure out.

http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=447359

It's called Mikronite. Read through these three pages. Good stuff guys is located in Daytona.

Expensive... but seems indestructible.
Coating gears isn't always the full story on making them last. No coating can stop the gear from breaking when they are pulling apart from each other, and that is exactly what happens in a Honda transmission.
 

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just a suggestion, seems like a decent alternative if one were to decide to get a new transmission, good place to start.
 

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Internet Crack Dealer
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just a suggestion, seems like a decent alternative if one were to decide to get a new transmission, good place to start.
I think it is a really good idea to improve strength and I also think that it would help. The problem is the gear actually pull apart from each other and that is what you have to try to figure out how to stop.

I'm sure it would be an improvement over a non-coated transmission.

Maybe Chris will produce some bullet-proof transmissions for us! :laughing:
I am working on it, as I said, it is a lot harder then a lot of people realize.
 

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Internet Crack Dealer
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how do the gears pull apart from each other? Just curious.
As the horsepower is converted through the transmission, all that pressure builds in the transmission case. The case actually starts to expand and pulls the main and counter shaft apart since they are mounted to the case itself. I can explain further or come up with a better description if that doesn't make sense.

Believe me, I never thought it would be easy.

LOL - I just checked out Liberty's website - they are here in Detroit, of all places, making Honda transmissions!
yeah, they are good people and can really help with the k-series. I am working on them to try and get them on board with developing a transmission.
 

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Bitch where's my Money!
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
i know that the torque can cause the main and counter shaft can to flex and seperate enough for the gear to slip and get chewwed up. a cuff brace helps in that very situation. this project is over my head also but i know these pieces must be made of forged billet to withstand the force. maybe just the brace and fordged trans guts would be all thats needed.
 

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Internet Crack Dealer
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You have to redo everything to do it correct. If you look at a Liberty transmission they had to replace and change a lot of stuff to get them to hold up. The k-series trans has a stronger case but the gears are pretty much the same. Doing a cuff will be a really good option and I am working on that already.
 

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Nice!
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the k20 first showed up in mid 2001 in the 2002 model rsx. for the first couple years the simple aftermarket mods to the drive train were sufficient such as a LSD and clutch. by the time 2004-2005 came around the K20 was already quite commonly being tuned to 400whp+ in daily drivers and was already showing signs of drivetrain problems. now in 2007 those figures have nearly doubled with quite a few daily drivers like my car making 600-700whp and some pushing for even more power. while the aftermarket support for the motor has been great as proven by the monsterous numbers these motors are now generating but the trans has not seen the same love. Even at 400whp people were stripping these gears, sometimes with ease. the problems will only get worse as power keeps increasing.

i would like to see someone with the proper engineering experiance design a gearset for these transmissions that is designed for these high power figures. this gear set could help high power fwd cars on more then one front. for one durability can be GREATLY improved as im sure no1 likes to spend $ on buying the same OEM parts again and again knowing they are sure to just fail on you again. also this gearset can have much longer gearing (N/A guys need not apply:p ) helping the car not only spool larger turbos faster through increasing the load on the motor at low rpm but it also improves traction (on drag radials and slicks). im pretty sure the trans case can support the power with the right mods as even the B series has greatly improved durability with moddifications to the internals of the trans.

what would be involved in making the gear set. would you have make it a 4 speed so u can use a handcuff brace to keep them from being torqued apart and slipping? i would like to keep the 6 speed but im willing to compromise if the car is geared correctly. 1st can go to about 65-70mph, 2nd till 100. 3rd for till 140, and 4th to 170. this way the car is able to finish the 1/4 with less shifts but still be able to have decent mpg for us daily drivers. im well aware their is is alot involved in this but the K is only growing in popularity even in the old school hondas and someone must want to tackle this problem. in my eyes this mod would be a win win situation as you get improved performance and improved reliability.

some people may cringe with the thought of losing two foward motion gears but if u drive one of these high power cars you would learn that after all the fun smokey burnouts that the first 2 gears are completely useless anyways and sometimes even 3rd is. i know their is no magic gear set that works perfect for everyone since people use diffrent size tires and have diffrent redlines but maybe make a few diffrent ratios for each gear so people can taylor the trans to the motor they have built. someone could just use a lower FD and that would in affect would lengthen each gear but only to an extent and it does nothing for increasing durability so i see it as a bandaid on a gunshot wound.

it took b series guys many years to get daily drivers into the 10's on drag radials (some now even broke into 9's), lets see if the K can do it faster:laughing: :p :thumbsup:
It has actually already been done. Magnus Motorsports made a dogbox trans a while ago for the Kseries. There were only a few made. And they sold very quickly. If the demand is high enough more can be made. It is a 4 speed trans, the base 5speed case is required. The gearing is quite different, but extremely suitable for the 1/4mile. They're not cheap, but in the grand scheme of things they're not really that expensive either.
 
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