Acura RSX, ILX and Honda EP3 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 124 Posts

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This is intended to be a one step thread for beginners to k-pro to get an idea. this will not include much advanced tuning, and will give the simplest ways to tune certain aspects but i may note when there is a more thorough way of doing something.

How to datalog:

With your laptop connected to your ecu through the usb cord and k-manager open, click on the yellow lightning bolt, and red dot buttons at the top (they will be gray when not connected to the ecu.) i click record and the datalog button automatically starts, but everyone else seems to have to click both :dontknow: the two buttons are circled in this pic... *note* put your kal in open loop to datalog.



When you're done datalogging click the buttons again to stop. the best pull to do is a third gear pull from about 2,000rpm to whatever you have your redline set for. then click datalog at the top of the page and save the datalog under whatever folder you wish.

Using your datalog:

Fuel adjustments- with your kal pulled up, click on datalog and load, then click the datalog you wish to view. now click on tables, and click on the low cam or high cam button to pull up whichever one you wish. once you have it pulled up click on view at the top of the page, near the bottom it will say "normal" "lambda" "fuel adjustment" "target lambda" and "clear lambda values." the default is normal, if you click view, then click lamdba it will show what your air/fuel was at each column and rpm which you recorded...



You can click on fuel adjustment and it will give you an idea of how much fuel to add or subtract in percent. positive value means you need to add about that much percent, a negative value means you need to reduce the fuel by about that percent.



Here is the adjustment window with percent at the top, the second cell allows you to add units, and the bottom cell allows you to change the value to whatever you want.



Here is what target lambda looks like. you can change these values so the fuel adjustment screen will be accurate to your desired a/f. to change these values click on options>settings, then click on the lambda overlay button in the window that pops up. it will have low load, medium load, and high load. the columns to the left are low, the central columns are medium load, and the columns to the right are high load. with an n/a kal you will only use low and medium.



**note** when tuning certain columns/rpm, make sure to check what cam angle you are in when making your adjustments if you're not using edit all tables. i edit each table separately, but for just street tuning to get your a/f safe checking the box that says "edit all tables" works great. doing this keeps your fuel tables for the different cam angles parallel to each other when an adjustment is made. it won't hurt anything either since it's only possible to use 1/2 cam angles at any given cell. if you don't use the edit all cam angles box, make sure you're adjusting your fuel table or ignition table for the correct cam angle since you have a map for each cam angle. just click on the cam angle buttons to see what cam angle you're using for any given rpm/column. if your cam angle is at say 26, go ahead and make your adjustments on the 20 cam angle, and 30 cam angle.

READ
These pics are of the regular boost tables that read less than 16psi, for higher click on options, and "show 3bar tables" or 5bar. for naturally aspirated click on options and "show n/a tables" which only go through column 10. most likely you will only hit column 9 n/a, so don't worry if you don't hit column 10.

Once you've selected a cell (rpm x column, or an entire column) to adjust the fuel right click, click adjust and add/subtract the desired amount and datalog again. with fuel, percentage is easiest since that is what the fuel adjustment tells you. when adjusting fuel avoid large jumps or dips on the graph to the right. the 2d map is probably easier for most people to use to determine how parallel and linear the fuel curve is. so, try to keep the lines smooth.

Ignition: for a beginner i would suggest not messing with ignition much other than to get rid of knock. it's basically impossible to tune for power without a dyno since you can't actually see if you made any gains. you can advance ignition to the point of losing power without hitting the knock threshold.

Getting rid of knock:
With your datalog open, click on the graph botton at the top. with the graph open, click on the graph to the far right. it will look something like this.



Once you've clicked on the graph click on sensors two buttons to the left of the graph button to find out if you had any knocks. this page will be mostly blank with two columns at the left. about halfway down the page it will say "k. count" in the left column, and the column to the right in the same row will show you how many knocks you had.



To isolate where your knocks were, look at where you clicked on the graph, and move to the left a few hundred rpm, or even a thousand on the graph, then look at the sensors view again. for example, the datalog from the user above had 4 knocks before 8,205 rpm. once i click on about 7,500 rpm in the graph, the sensors section shows only 3 knocks. so one of the knocks happened between 7,500 and 8,205. moving to the right in the graph in small increments i isolated that particular knock to 7,800 rpm. so i will decrease ignition in that area by a degree or two and find out if it eliminated the knock in the next datalog. you know which column to adjust by checking the fuel table to see what column you were in at that rpm. the closest rpm setting to this was 7,700 rpm and it was in column 13 at the time. there were 3 other knocks that also happened in column 13, so i ended up reducing ignition for this kal by, i believe, 2 degrees in column 13.

Adjusting ignition is the same as adjusting fuel, but instead of adjusting by percentage, use the "add to selected value" cell in the window once you've highlighted the correct cells and right clicked and clicked "adjust"

Lean cut
this is what a lean cut looks like on a datalog.



the first dip is just from me coasting, the spike right after that is where i started to give it throttle and it instantly went into lean cut. the reason i hit this lean cut was due to me setting the engine load setting too low. i set it for -1.0 psi at 14 a/f but i started hitting -.3 psi at about 2400rpm without even being quite at full throttle. the colder the air is the higher the map reading will be. for instance, during the summer i never saw above -.5psi at full throttle high rpm, but in december i started hitting close to column 10.

if you get a professional tune, i've noticed probably 90% of tuners WON'T set your lean cut. so if you want it set, you may need to do it. i find it easier to change the units beside engine load to psi as i have no concept for millibar(mbar) or kilopascal(kPa) a lot of people will experience a lean area or even lean cut around vtec engagement. if this happens the first thing you want to do is add fuel before and after vtec on the low cam, and do the same for the high cam. with supercharged setups one of the easiest things to do is lower the vtec point to somewhere between 3,000 and 3,500 which are fairly good points with the supercharged setup anyway.

Temperature Compensation
under parameters you will find a tab labeled "temp compensation" when you click it, a table like this shows up...



The first thing you want to do is change the temperature range to temperatures you will see. most of the kals go from a range of something like -22 up to 208 or something similar. i personally wouldn't be driving anywhere if the temperatures were close to either of those extremes to put your iat around that. as you can see, my table goes as low as -9 (for some reason it won't take -10 :dontknow: ) and up to 150. i never see below zero here, really normally not even below 10, but you want a little room for error. i also don't ever see iat's a higher than probably around 120, but saw as high as 140 with a short ram on a day i believe was around 105 or so. so in my opinion it's best to leave a margin for error of about 20 degrees or so in both directions.

if you leave the cells too far apart your fuel won't effectively be compensated, though they do interpolate. the general rule of thumb is to add 1% fuel per 10 degrees lower, or vice versa with getting hotter. for example, in the high load section i have my center cell for 85 degrees because it is a common temperature for me, then looking at the next cell to the left i have it set for +5. that 35 degree cell will add 5% fuel from 35 degrees and up. so, if the temperature is say 65, it may run a little rich, but that is better than adding 2% with 40 degrees out and running lean. so if your second cell is 50 degrees below your center cell, you want to add 5, or if they are 40 degrees apart, enter 4. for the low load tables i tend to only adjust by half of what i used in high load, and if it's not a whole number (example 4.5) i will round up by the half degree.

Random: it's usually best just to stick with the oem replacement denso o2 sensors.


this thread will be treated as a living document and can be changed for any outdated information, for any input as seen fit or any errors.

other materials:

i found the thread that i originally read about a/f from a few years ago and i can't in good conscience leave it out of this thread since they are related and it helped me when i first got k-pro.
sik lil playa's thread on a/f
http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=274704


Also check out this thread for other explanation on K-pro etc.

K-pro beginners guide



K-pro Tuners Guide for anyone not comfortable tuning themselves

K-pro Tuners guide
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
good info. very nice!!!
haha, posted before i could close it :laughing: you earned it beating me to the punch, so your post can stay, lol.

edit: i'm gonna go ahead and open this thread to see how it goes and will stay open as long as the posts are suggestions for making this sticky better... since there has been no input in the ecu chat since i even mentioned thinking about making this.
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
working on adding a lean cut section. should be up in the next couple days.

anyone who's new to k-pro post up about what you've had problems figuring out, or if you're not new to it, mention what you may have had trouble figuring out when you first started with it.
 

·
k > b
Joined
·
1,010 Posts
great write up. from my own personal experience though, the lambda overlay is great but it's not the most accurate thing in the world. it's far from it.

i use it to more or less find the pattern and i go ahead and smoothen out the fuel curves myself.

remember that the fuel adjustments stated by the lambda overlay are in percentages so when you right click and hit adjust enter the number under percentage adjustment.

one way to notice incorrect values displayed by the lambda overlay is if it tells you to adjust something and the adjustment causes the fuel curve you're editing to overlap another one.

as far as recording a sequence and targeting a/f. make a template with a/f, rpm, cam angle and tps. i have the tps on there just to make sure that the car is at full throttle and thus entering open loop and when they let off the throttle. record a 3rd gear pull and then look at what cam angle it's running lean or rich and adjust accordingly.

as far as ignition goes, i make a seperate template just to find knock. i have knock count, rpm and knock threshold on it.

if you do wish to tweak ignition go by 2 degrees. make sure you're adjusting ignition as a selected value and not as a percentage.

also make sure that your primary o2 sensor is in good working order! if you click display and you're datalogging and the a/f just sits still at one number it's not working.
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
great write up. from my own personal experience though, the lambda overlay is great but it's not the most accurate thing in the world. it's far from it.

i use it to more or less find the pattern and i go ahead and smoothen out the fuel curves myself.

remember that the fuel adjustments stated by the lambda overlay are in percentages so when you right click and hit adjust enter the number under percentage adjustment.

one way to notice incorrect values displayed by the lambda overlay is if it tells you to adjust something and the adjustment causes the fuel curve you're editing to overlap another one.

as far as recording a sequence and targeting a/f. make a template with a/f, rpm, cam angle and tps. i have the tps on there just to make sure that the car is at full throttle and thus entering open loop and when they let off the throttle. record a 3rd gear pull and then look at what cam angle it's running lean or rich and adjust accordingly.

as far as ignition goes, i make a seperate template just to find knock. i have knock count, rpm and knock threshold on it.

if you do wish to tweak ignition go by 2 degrees. make sure you're adjusting ignition as a selected value and not as a percentage.

also make sure that your primary o2 sensor is in good working order! if you click display and you're datalogging and the a/f just sits still at one number it's not working.
thanks for the input. i agree that sometimes the lambda overlay can throw out some weird values. like you mentioned with checking the tps, one thing that can help cut down on off the wall values is to to click graph (the one at the top left beside "online" ) and click set new start, and set new end to isolate only the full throttle area, if that's what you're tuning. i mentioned the fuel values in percentages under the "read" section. after reading your post i think i'll put more emphasis on fuel table smoothing, and more emphasis on which type of adjustment to make with each table

but i'm going to keep it as more of a beginners thing so people can get running safe, and not with the goal of tuning for power tuning and get in over their head.

any more input will be appreciated :thumbsup:

blastoise ftw :laughing:
 

·
k > b
Joined
·
1,010 Posts
something else i forgot to mention is to watch out with aftermarket wideband's. some aftermarket wideband's won't work with the lambda overlay. your best bet is to stick to an oem replacement.

i just saw the link in the last part of the first post. as far as having the edit all tables box checked, i'm mostly against it when it comes to making fuel adjustments. it's great if you want a quick street tune and don't have time to go thru and edit fuel at individual cam angles. using edit all tables isn't too accurate and sometimes your fuel curves can cross. if you're in a hurry use it. but if you're not take your time to go thru whichever cam angle it's off and adjust it accordingly.

like i mentioned before i have cam angle recorded in my a/f graph to know at what cam angle i need to adjust the a/f ratio. sometimes you'll also see cam angle readings of say 25 or 35. lets say it's 25. in this case adjust fuel at cam angle 20 and 30.
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
something else i forgot to mention is to watch out with aftermarket wideband's. some aftermarket wideband's won't work with the lambda overlay. your best bet is to stick to an oem replacement.

i just saw the link in the last part of the first post. as far as having the edit all tables box checked, i'm mostly against it when it comes to making fuel adjustments. it's great if you want a quick street tune and don't have time to go thru and edit fuel at individual cam angles. using edit all tables isn't too accurate and sometimes your fuel curves can cross. if you're in a hurry use it. but if you're not take your time to go thru whichever cam angle it's off and adjust it accordingly.

like i mentioned before i have cam angle recorded in my a/f graph to know at what cam angle i need to adjust the a/f ratio. sometimes you'll also see cam angle readings of say 25 or 35. lets say it's 25. in this case adjust fuel at cam angle 20 and 30.
i didn't even think about o2 sensors, i'll have to put that in there too. :thumbsup:

yeah, i never use edit all tables, but i normally suggest it to beginners ever since i showed one guy how to do basic tunes and when he started doing it on his own he kept leaving the fuel tables on the 0 cam angle (forgetting to do each one) and couldn't figure out why his datalog never turned up different. i should probably go into more detail regarding that too.

as far as the last part of your post, i'll probably mention that in the fuel section, and in the cam angle section (when i get around to doing it.) once again, thanks for the input.


edit: added the lean cut section. it's not very detailed, any input is welcome.
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
whats "kal"? never used an ecu before and im expecting it to be something suuuuuuper simple..... thanks for not pointing and laughing. lol
kalibration... yes, the pun is intended with the "k" :laughing: (k-pro) for further clarification a kal is the set of parameters your ecu goes by. there are many kals already on k-manager to choose from as a starting point. check out conrad's sticky in this section too, it's more of an FAQ.
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
added temp compensation suggestions.
 

·
******************
Joined
·
9,306 Posts
ok tryin to get ahead by downloading everything i need from hondata.com for my 02 type s
do i download these 2 things and thats it?
KManager
RomEditor 4 USB FIX

heres the link: http://www.hondata.com/downloads.html
(the reason why im downloading is so for when i trade him my ecu, i can plug my laptop up to his kpro to make sure its authentic seeing if kmanager would load.)

thanks
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
ok tryin to get ahead by downloading everything i need from hondata.com for my 02 type s
do i download these 2 things and thats it?
KManager
RomEditor 4 USB FIX

heres the link: http://www.hondata.com/downloads.html
(the reason why im downloading is so for when i trade him my ecu, i can plug my laptop up to his kpro to make sure its authentic seeing if kmanager would load.)

thanks
just go to hondata.com, click on k-pro at the top, and scroll to the very bottom and click "here" where it says download the latest version of kmanager.
 

·
Eat Liberals
Joined
·
16,445 Posts
so basically, after i do a wot pull in 3rd gear, i load up both the datalog and my kal and then i select the fuel adjustment values, then i clicked edit all tables and then i clicked high speed fuel table. i right click and select adjust, and then i enter the number in that cell that i am adjusting in the percent slot, like this?



and i do this for all the cells that have a number in them? now since i am editing all tables, i dont need to go and check each table for each cam angle do i? or should i change each one according to what it has in the cells with numbers?
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
so basically, after i do a wot pull in 3rd gear, i load up both the datalog and my kal and then i select the fuel adjustment values, then i clicked edit all tables and then i clicked high speed fuel table. i right click and select adjust, and then i enter the number in that cell that i am adjusting in the percent slot, like this?



and i do this for all the cells that have a number in them? now since i am editing all tables, i dont need to go and check each table for each cam angle do i? or should i change each one according to what it has in the cells with numbers?
you have the right idea... i tend to just look at the lambda and adjust by 1% per .1 change needed... example, if you're aiming for 13.0, and your a/f was 12.9 then the adjustment would be -1% if you want you can look at fuel adjustment and lambda. you just want to make sure your columns stay smooth when looking at the graph. to help isolate and keep the values as accurate as possible set new start and set new end if your datalog was long. i described doing it in my third or fourth post. you really don't need to go into all the different cam angles if you have edit all tables... but once you get more comfortable with it, i suggest adjusting each cam angle accordingly. it makes for better looking cam angles, and better transitions. but like i said, the edit all tables method is fine, and better until you get comfortable.
 

·
Eat Liberals
Joined
·
16,445 Posts
ok, well instead of changing the value from -3 in the cell to -3 in the percent adjustment slot in the adjustment window, i did one less, so instead of -3 i went put in -2 to be safe. i really dont like running too stoich, i prefer a tad rich, not too much but rich is better than lean i figure
 

·
It is inevitable
Joined
·
15,843 Posts
Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
just curious, but what a/f are you tuning for? or, what a/f does it show you when click on target lambda? you may know already but if you click options then settings you can change your target lambda.
 
1 - 20 of 124 Posts
Top