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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I apologize for audio. But I wanted to share info on this topic. As we are always told DC2 will always be faster which is not the case.
https://youtu.be/ivuz_joL3wI
 

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Wishbone > McPherson

Regardless of the times, the DC2 has the more desirable suspension setup.


*** I didnt actually watch the video, I just hate the RSX front suspension geometry.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Wishbone > McPherson

Regardless of the times, the DC2 has the more desirable suspension setup.


*** I didnt actually watch the video, I just hate the RSX front suspension geometry.
Yes, which I do go over that but DC5 has the better chassis. With ingenuity you can get around Macpherson hurdles
 

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From the best motoring and hot versions I watched seems that stock the newer type r is better at handling but tuned seems the dc2 has the advantages
 

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I bought my first Honda, a DC5 not knowing they were supposed to be the worst handling car ever made by Honda (or so they say). The DC5 I purchased wasa triple Australian wing Championship car. Good pedigree I thought to myself. Anyway it had nasty Bump and Torque Steer. First day out I spun twice in a straight line! So I'm sitting in the car pulling my hair out thinking what's wrong with this car??? Subsequent enquiries and development days helped sort things but it's still a work in progress as you read this (March 2019). A thing called a Delrin Spacer from SHG helped a lot and working out the correct placement of the Rod Ends and the Angle of the Tie Rod Arms appears to be critical!!! Bump Steer measuring and correction has been happening and further refinement downstairs (under my House) is underway right now. But for the case of which is faster, DC2 or DC5 I think (no, I know) a lot of it is the Engine and Driver but here in Australia in my area the DC5 is King (in two na Class's) and has been for quite few years.
 

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So just continuing on after watching your video there is a couple of things I should mention. I spoke with the Chap who built my DC5 and he said the DC2 is technically a better car because of the A-Arm Suspension vs the Macpherson of the DC5. He went on to say 'the Mac suspension has problems but it can be improved to a point where it's acceptable but the the A-Arms of the DC2 will always be better'. That said HardRace in Sydney Australia have a suspension solution for the DC5 which improves things greatly.

The other big improvement is the Delrin Spacer by SHG. SHG'S Delrin Spacer bolts in under the Rack Raiser gets rid of the vagueness and wandering steering. When you pull the stock one out and compare to the SHG you will say 'OMG'.

Main problem with the DC5 is when lowered (and my race car is lowered a lot) the front wheels Toe In and the stock Tie Rod Arms run out of Adjustment and you can't get the Toe back to anywhere near correct. I saw 16mm of Toe In per side on my car early in the piece and I raced and won like that.

The Triple Adjustable Arms and the Tie Rod Ends from Hard Race fixed that.

Next the Front R/C Roll Centre was way off. Hard Race Ball Joints fixed that by repositioning the R/C. U-Tube replacing Ball Joints in the DC5.

After that a Tegiwa Rack Raiser (UK) is necessary too. A Rack Raiser puts the Toe Arm Angle back close to stock and the Tie Rod Arms get the Bump Steer / Torque Steer working nicely.

All this talk about Angled Arms goes against what I was brought up on how to think about Rod Arm Angles. My heritage dictated flat arms or arms leveled to match Upper and Lower Points was the way to go. I was WRONG with the DC5.
With the DC5 it's about getting the Tie Rod Arms to Camber GAIN the correct way in Bump and Roll.
My specs atm are 3 1/4 Camber with 2.0 Caster with either 0 or 2 degress of Toe Out depending on the Course. My Caster is never changed but the Camber is reduced for a high speed not many corners Course.

For the DC5 Camber is way more important that Caster! Read that again.

In closing the Bump Steer CRITICAL!!!

Getting the Arms to Camber the right way is the secret with the DC5. Don't stuff about. Buy the stuff I used. Get the Bump close to right, put a big hp engine in with C/O's, big Sway Bars, sticky Tires, a bit of Aero and you can rule like I do smashing records along the way. Peace Out. :hb:
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
So just continuing on after watching your video there is a couple of things I should mention. I spoke with the Chap who built my DC5 and he said the DC2 is technically a better car because of the A-Arm Suspension vs the Macpherson of the DC5. He went on to say 'the Mac suspension has problems but it can be improved to a point where it's acceptable but the the A-Arms of the DC2 will always be better'. That said HardRace in Sydney Australia have a suspension solution for the DC5 which improves things greatly.

The other big improvement is the Delrin Spacer by SHG. SHG'S Delrin Spacer bolts in under the Rack Raiser gets rid of the vagueness and wandering steering. When you pull the stock one out and compare to the SHG you will say 'OMG'.

Main problem with the DC5 is when lowered (and my race car is lowered a lot) the front wheels Toe In and the stock Tie Rod Arms run out of Adjustment and you can't get the Toe back to anywhere near correct. I saw 16mm of Toe In per side on my car early in the piece and I raced and won like that.

The Triple Adjustable Arms and the Tie Rod Ends from Hard Race fixed that.

Next the Front R/C Roll Centre was way off. Hard Race Ball Joints fixed that by repositioning the R/C. U-Tube replacing Ball Joints in the DC5.

After that a Tegiwa Rack Raiser (UK) is necessary too. A Rack Raiser puts the Toe Arm Angle back close to stock and the Tie Rod Arms get the Bump Steer / Torque Steer working nicely.

All this talk about Angled Arms goes against what I was brought up on how to think about Rod Arm Angles. My heritage dictated flat arms or arms leveled to match Upper and Lower Points was the way to go. I was WRONG with the DC5.
With the DC5 it's about getting the Tie Rod Arms to Camber GAIN the correct way in Bump and Roll.
My specs atm are 3 1/4 Camber with 2.0 Caster with either 0 or 2 degress of Toe Out depending on the Course. My Caster is never changed but the Camber is reduced for a high speed not many corners Course.

For the DC5 Camber is way more important that Caster! Read that again.

In closing the Bump Steer CRITICAL!!!

Getting the Arms to Camber the right way is the secret with the DC5. Don't stuff about. Buy the stuff I used. Get the Bump close to right, put a big hp engine in with C/O's, big Sway Bars, sticky Tires, a bit of Aero and you can rule like I do smashing records along the way. Peace Out.

Thank you very much for your post. And that is awesome to hear you are doing well with DC5.
One big issue I think with camber is the roll center. In my opinion the tie rods do run out and won't let you 0 out toe, but with camber it's because of the control arms. With,Macpherson the top control arm is basically the strut and where it connects with strut tower. That influences the camber. The Type R counters this by using a lower control arm that's longer and therefore cause negative camber angle. When you lower DC5 that lower control arm angles upward. I think under g forces this causes it to go positive.
 

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The DC2 with a similar suspension setup to the DC5 will always handle better due to the front double wishbone suspension and better rear suspension. There is a reason the Realtime team ditched the RSX in favor of the TSX.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The DC2 with a similar suspension setup to the DC5 will always handle better due to the front double wishbone suspension and better rear suspension. There is a reason the Realtime team ditched the RSX in favor of the TSX.
But what is the reason for the fastest Integra on Tsukuba being a DC5?
 

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But what is the reason for the fastest Integra on Tsukuba being a DC5?
I thought we were talking about handling here? Stock for stock the DC5 will be in most cases will be slightly faster than the DC2 due to the K20A and the 6 speed manual. Modified the DC2 takes the W.

You can't ignore the mountain of evidence out there that supports Honda's double wishbone cars handle better than the DC5/EP3.
 

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I just raced here last weekend and while I had massive Fuel Surge Problems I can tell you I've sorted the DC5 Steering issue. That being horrendous Bump and Torque Steer. When I lowered the DC5 the Toe In went to heck and towed in 16mm per side. That's a lot hey. The thing that vexed me was the Steering Arms coming from the cars Rack Centre. But I got it where I wanted measuring wheel arch to rim heights then started on the sorting the Toe In issue. I use Spherical Rod Ends with High Angle Conical Washers but anyone can use the Rod Ends from either Hard Race in Sydney or other after market items and achieve similar results. Anyway the Rod Ends MUST mount on top of the Coil Over steering Arms. The difference in Steering is amaze balls. Now I must point out something. I have two sets of C/O's and they have the Steering Arms set at vastly different heights. I currently run Yellow Speed up front. I've gone from having having a death grip on the wheel to be ready for it when it decides it wants to go into automatic change direction mode to having just two fingers and my Elbow resting on the Window Net at 200kmh @ 9000rpm and everyone else is lifting off just before the 200 Braking Marker where as I sail right up to the 120 Mark and tip it in. Trail Brake right up to the Apex then smash the throttle down and let the engine pull the car around. Huge smiles doing this I tell you as it used to be just plain rubbish to drive. So getting Toe In to stay fairly neutral is the key with the DC5. Enjoy!
 

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I just raced here last weekend and while I had massive Fuel Surge Problems I can tell you I've sorted the DC5 Steering issue. That being horrendous Bump and Torque Steer. When I lowered the DC5 the Toe In went to heck and towed in 16mm per side. That's a lot hey. The thing that vexed me was the Steering Arms coming from the cars Rack Centre. But I got it where I wanted measuring wheel arch to rim heights then started on the sorting the Toe In issue. I use Spherical Rod Ends with High Angle Conical Washers but anyone can use the Rod Ends from either Hard Race in Sydney or other after market items and achieve similar results. Anyway the Rod Ends MUST mount on top of the Coil Over steering Arms. The difference in Steering is amaze balls. Now I must point out something. I have two sets of C/O's and they have the Steering Arms set at vastly different heights. I currently run Yellow Speed up front. I've gone from having having a death grip on the wheel to be ready for it when it decides it wants to go into automatic change direction mode to having just two fingers and my Elbow resting on the Window Net at 200kmh @ 9000rpm and everyone else is lifting off just before the 200 Braking Marker where as I sail right up to the 120 Mark and tip it in. Trail Brake right up to the Apex then smash the throttle down and let the engine pull the car around. Huge smiles doing this I tell you as it used to be just plain rubbish to drive. So getting Toe In to stay fairly neutral is the key with the DC5. Enjoy!


So keeping your toe as neutral as possible and of course aftermarket tie rods will help if you have coil overs? What are your thoughts on lowering springs and getting toe to neutral? I noticed most people prefer c/o's instead for the adjust-ability.
 

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EP3A2 I believe even with lowered Springs getting the Toe to a close to neutral state is indeed possible. It's all about the placement of the Rack Arms. Place them where I said and tune / refine from there. I used a String Line wheel alignment to get it close. A Professional Wheel Aligner will probably be to dear to do the entire job (for me) but sometimes it's a lot easier to just throw some money and get it done. Since I set my DC5 I have run two race meetings and haven't touched a thing and the car hasn't been to a Wheel Aligner yet as I'm enjoying the drive now.

I prefer C/O's simply for Track tuning adjustments. If I had a DC5 / RSX on the road as a daily I don't see a need for C/O's but that's just me.
 
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