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Still Double Clutch Demon
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Nevermind. Ssusa.com 1700$ ftl. Still need suggestions. I know you hate drops so
Somewhere around the hfp/aspec height.
 

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ride height Nazi
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Discussion Starter #62
2 choices that I see.....koni inserts for the front......or get an a-spec kit form curry acura for 650 and some dc5 tierod ends and nuts.
 

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Still Double Clutch Demon
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2 choices that I see.....koni inserts for the front......or get an a-spec kit form curry acura for 650 and some dc5 tierod ends and nuts.
Really thats all the aspec need is tie rods and nuts? I thought there was shaving and grinding involved. Can you explain inserts?
 

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ride height Nazi
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Discussion Starter #64
Really thats all the aspec need is tie rods and nuts? I thought there was shaving and grinding involved. Can you explain inserts?
you have to hacksaw 3mm of steel on the rear lower shock bushing for the a-spec.....but yea............theres nothing wrong with your springs...its the dampers....koni sells the front insets...you hacksaw the tops off your stock front struts, pull the guts out, drill a hole in the bottom and drop in the insert...then stick a bolt in the hole you drilled to hold the damper cartage in place....no big deal, takes a afternoon even for the short bus crew......
 

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Still Double Clutch Demon
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you have to hacksaw 3mm of steel on the rear lower shock bushing for the a-spec.....but yea............theres nothing wrong with your springs...its the dampers....koni sells the front insets...you hacksaw the tops off your stock front struts, pull the guts out, drill a hole in the bottom and drop in the insert...then stick a bolt in the hole you drilled to hold the damper cartage in place....no big deal, takes a afternoon even for the short bus crew......


Implying something?:rtard: eh a good project but but no time as I'm trying to get this done and get to Cali. Might wait til out there. Might just scoop a headache free hfp kit.
So basically I customize the aspec kit to fit or end up with a lower drop than I want. Hmm. Gotta think.
 

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ride height Nazi
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Discussion Starter #66
Implying something?:retard: eh a good project but but no time as I'm trying to get this done and get to Cali. Might wait til out there. Might just scoop a headache free hfp kit.
So basically I customize the aspec kit to fit or end up with a lower drop than I want. Hmm. Gotta think.
my car is a a-spec suspension.......:D
 

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Still Double Clutch Demon
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ride height Nazi
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Discussion Starter #68
Yes yes it is. :rotfl:
comeon...thats not to low.........



remember thats with 225/45-17 tires that are almost .75 inches taller than stock.
 

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Still Double Clutch Demon
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comeon...thats not to low.........



remember thats with 225/45-17 tires that are almost .75 inches taller than stock.
No not to low at all. Your short bus comment was tho :( :rotfl:
 

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ride height Nazi
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Discussion Starter #71

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ride height Nazi
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Discussion Starter #72
No not to low at all. Your short bus comment was tho :( :rotfl:
you miss understood....I am the shortbus crew.....I have always have been very dislexic....thats why I spell like the retard( no offence to retards as they probably spell better than me)....I was on the shortbus for years.....:rotfl:
 

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Still Double Clutch Demon
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you miss understood....I am the shortbus crew.....I have always have been very dislexic....thats why I spell like the retard( no offence to retards as they probably spell better than me)....I was on the shortbus for years.....:rotfl:
Na I was just kidding man. This shit made me laugh.
 

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Much as I love Konis for their quality and adjustability, their front inserts are too long for the DC5. Which probably isn't entirely their fault - the standard Honda shocks are too long too, with too little bump travel; and lowering the car makes it worse. If you can find a Koni workshop with some decent engineering experience, get them to make some shorter inserts or build some complete struts. It will cost you, but the results are worth it.

Remember also that with the high-mounted steering arm these Hondas use, the sliding bush of the shock shaft, just under the shaft seal, takes all the steering load. An insert just dropped in and bolted at the bottom is fine with a low steering arm but in these cars it won't be as rigid as one that is screwed down at the top (the way all struts used to be made...).

An ASR rear bar seems to be the way to go. But you may have to build your exhaust around the bar - it's a tight fit. I wish they had been available several years ago.

Our DC5 rally car has over 8" of wheel travel all round (costing about 5x as much as Konis), and needs relatively soft springs to soak big bumps at high speed. We use big rear swaybars - on tarmac it also needs a stiff bar at the front to control body roll. On gravel, the standard front bar is enough but the rear is a custom, adjustable 26 mm solid bar. If it's very slippery, the front bar can be disconnected.

The general principle for cornering and accelerating out of turns in a FWD car is to distribute the weight between the front wheels as evenly as possible taking as much of the roll forces on the rear wheels as you can. In practice, on a sealed surface, this means the rear springs and bar must be stiff enough so that the inside rear wheel just lifts.
 

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Suspension setups are all about compromise when you drive on the street....My ep is my dd and my wife has a bad neck, so running huge spring rates is not really an option for me. If you want to run barless, you need to up the spring rates. Sways will keep your car flat in a turn but they will also reduce grip on the inside tires, they also make the car less consistent. Set a car up barless for autoX and you will be able to repeat run times like a robot, run bars and every run is a little different. To run bar less with stickie summer tires and you need at least 400-500lb springs in the front....as for the rear.....you need a lot more, about 1200lb...because of the crappy rear motion ratio and the fact that you should use the non drive wheels to control body roll...I was pretty happy running 450lb front springs with no bar and 850lb rear springs and a 16mm rear bar. If rotation is what your after, why not play with the real alinment...add some toe in and reduce the rear negative camber. Make the rear less able to turn in and you can over load the tires when ever you want.
Yeah I drove my car last year for a couple days with no front sway when I installed my DC5R front arms and was still waiting on the DC5R sway bar. I had 500lb springs up front and the front end was a sloppy ass hoe lol. I would say a front bar is necessary if youre running anything softer than a 700lb spring up front just for the sake of stability.

If your setup does call for sway bars, you can dial out most of that unpredictability with adjustable endlinks. When you set the cars static ride height and camber, especially when cross weighing, it will produce uneven loads on the sway bars- causing them to be preloaded and act as springs. Therefore you wont be feeling your "actual" spring rate until the car rolls, and releases that preload on the bar.

With adjustable endlinks you can make the bars totally neutral and the car more predictable. this of course has no effect on the fact that sway bars reduce inside traction, but like you said excessively stiff rates just arent an option for those of us who also DD.
 

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ride height Nazi
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Discussion Starter #76
#75
CrocNZ
New Member


Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1 Much as I love Konis for their quality and adjustability, their front inserts are too long for the DC5. Which probably isn't entirely their fault - the standard Honda shocks are too long too, with too little bump travel; and lowering the car makes it worse. If you can find a Koni workshop with some decent engineering experience, get them to make some shorter inserts or build some complete struts. It will cost you, but the results are worth it.

Remember also that with the high-mounted steering arm these Hondas use, the sliding bush of the shock shaft, just under the shaft seal, takes all the steering load. An insert just dropped in and bolted at the bottom is fine with a low steering arm but in these cars it won't be as rigid as one that is screwed down at the top (the way all struts used to be made...).

An ASR rear bar seems to be the way to go. But you may have to build your exhaust around the bar - it's a tight fit. I wish they had been available several years ago.

Our DC5 rally car has over 8" of wheel travel all round (costing about 5x as much as Konis), and needs relatively soft springs to soak big bumps at high speed. We use big rear swaybars - on tarmac it also needs a stiff bar at the front to control body roll. On gravel, the standard front bar is enough but the rear is a custom, adjustable 26 mm solid bar. If it's very slippery, the front bar can be disconnected.

The general principle for cornering and accelerating out of turns in a FWD car is to distribute the weight between the front wheels as evenly as possible taking as much of the roll forces on the rear wheels as you can. In practice, on a sealed surface, this means the rear springs and bar must be stiff enough so that the inside rear wheel just lifts.

Big bars are never the correct option, they are just a bandaid for poor suspension setup when you are talking about racing. Sway bars just reduce grip and add a reduction in the independance of the suspension. Making shorter struts is never a bad idea, what realtime did was top the strut towers and rase them up to the point the hood sat on them.

Have you read through this thread?

http://forums.clubep3.com/showthread.php?t=657092
 

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ride height Nazi
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Discussion Starter #77
Yeah I drove my car last year for a couple days with no front sway when I installed my DC5R front arms and was still waiting on the DC5R sway bar. I had 500lb springs up front and the front end was a sloppy ass hoe lol. I would say a front bar is necessary if youre running anything softer than a 700lb spring up front just for the sake of stability.

If your setup does call for sway bars, you can dial out most of that unpredictability with adjustable endlinks. When you set the cars static ride height and camber, especially when cross weighing, it will produce uneven loads on the sway bars- causing them to be preloaded and act as springs. Therefore you wont be feeling your "actual" spring rate until the car rolls, and releases that preload on the bar.

With adjustable endlinks you can make the bars totally neutral and the car more predictable. this of course has no effect on the fact that sway bars reduce inside traction, but like you said excessively stiff rates just arent an option for those of us who also DD.
What are your rear spring rates? You should use the non drive wheels to controle body roll....also, what are you alinment specs? Toe out in the front makes the car wonder but it has great turn in. A little toe in in the front will make the car track strait.
 

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What are your rear spring rates? You should use the non drive wheels to controle body roll....also, what are you alinment specs? Toe out in the front makes the car wonder but it has great turn in. A little toe in in the front will make the car track strait.
My rates are 650 front 1000 rear. I agree you should avoid using a front sway to control body roll, but with anything under 700 lbs i feel it is absolutely necessary to run a front sway to control roll.

I disagree that roll should be controlled with the non drive wheels being a blanket statement. Ideally you want stiff rates up front to control front roll and pitch, especially since these cars have an issue with rear jacking and overloading the outside front. You want to limit roll aswell as keep as much weight as possible towards the rear of the car. Since I'm not about to be running 800/2000 on the street a front sway is necessary.

I run 1/64 out front and 0 rear for toe
 

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You've got to tailor your setup to what you are wanting to achieve with the car. A high-speed setup needs stability and balance; traction is not an issue. For low-speed competition, putting the power to the road is a real problem but you don't care if it becomes impossible to control at 150 MPH.

You can't do both, but lessons learned from the compromises made in rallying transfer directly to cars driven on the street because real roads have real bumps. Too many crashes happen when badly set up cars just don't cope with uneven surfaces. 2500 rear springs are great on a perfectly smooth racetrack - if you can find one - but in every other situation you are forced to run very much softer springs, instead loading up the outside rear tyre using a swaybar.

But above all, handling and safety depends on your dampers (shock absorbers) being adjusted properly. Konis are so good because their valving is almost always correct for standard or slightly stiffer springs. (Commonly this is somewhere in the last 3/4 turn before full stiff.) And if your chosen springs need more rebound stiffness, stiffer piston valves can be fitted. With other brands the results are much more hit and miss.

For what it's worth, an excellent progressive rear spring, with sufficient travel (but only just enough at just over 3", allowing 6" at the wheel - be careful if the rear of the car is heavy or high), soft riding, yet stiff under acceleration, is the KST-900 from King Springs Australia.

Static loading on the rear springs is about 950 lb for an empty DC5 or EP3 (less in a lightened race car). The KST-900 ("nominally" 900 lb/in) has an instantaneous rate of around 700 lb/in at this load, but it goes up to around 1200 over the next inch of spring travel.
 

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#78 Mustclime, I've just read the Steve Hoeschler thread, and what he says makes perfect sense. But I have never had the luxury of preparing a car solely for the type of very smooth surface he is talking about. Mostly they are rally cars, or general purpose club cars used on all sorts of different, lumpy surfaces, as well as being driven on the road. So the spring rates he is talking about are just too stiff, and, as he says, to keep roll within limits you have to make up the difference using bars.

A car can't handle well if it's hitting the bump stops, and to this end I have also used longer struts on two cars - the front of a DC5 and the rear of an MR2, extending the towers up as far as the bodywork allowed in each case.

One thing that I like about bars is that they are so easy and fast to adjust. You can change brake pads and sway bar settings and transform a car from excellent gravel or dirt spec to excellent tarmac in not much more time than it takes to change the tyres.

I have to disagree with you that sway bars "just reduce grip". What they do is alter the proportion of the body roll being resisted by the front or the rear tyres. (And they only alter the independence of the suspension by a small amount.) The reason that this works is because tyres have a non-linear response to maximum possible cornering grip as a proportion of the weight carried. (Often referred to as μ, the coefficient of friction.) The value of μ drops as more and more weight is applied to the tyre, so although numerically more cornering force can be generated with more weight, the ratio of (cornering force) : (weight) drops.

If you transfer all of the rear 40% of the car's weight to the outside rear wheel, you are taking some of that roll loading off the outside front wheel, giving the more heavily loaded (and driving) front wheel an easier job, sharing the weight of the front of the car more evenly between the two front tyres, and increasing the level of cornering grip at the front end - i.e. reducing understeer.

Curiously, straight-line traction and braking don't follow this rule. Until you get well over a tyre's design weight capacity, the ratio of maximum fore-and-aft traction to weight carried remains pretty constant. For example: moving weight to the front or rear of a car has little effect on straight-line braking distance, yet it has a marked effect on the cornering ability of the car - as if it was reducing grip at the heavier end.
 
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