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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok ive been here on this forum for awhile. i did my reasearch already but there are some questions that wasnt answered. i wanna make the car still reliable even im boosting (i wanted to boost to 10psi on greddy kit) what do i need to do?

this is what i know to make the car reliable :
change the pistons and rings
change the clutch to stage II and flywheel

and thats it? did i forgot something? what else do i need?

thank you very much
 

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There are many parts to consider upgrading for turbo setups other than clutch, pistons, rings, etc..

Although a motor build does assist in making a turbo motor more sturdy (notice I didn't say bomb-proof), you need to understand that a motor will blow no matter what you use to build it if it is not properly tuned..

Fuel tuning is one of the most important parts of your setup..it doesn't matter what you use to build the engine, detonation can destroy it all..

Tuning on a dyno is a wonderful way to work on this, but you need to understand that most piggyback fuel controllers do not compensate for atmospheric changes, so as the weather changes, so do your engine's needs..

A great way to monitor your air/fuel would be by wide-band O2 systems that are available..These systems are much more accurate and "real-time" than a basic air/fuel guages..

So, yes, a correct build is important to a "reliable" engine setup, but proper fuel/ignition tuning should be at the top of that list as well..Talk to your builder and/or installer; if they are reputable, they should be able to go over your individual setup with you to optimize your opportunities..

Happy Boosting :)..
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
rSaTvEeVrE: block guard for?

bluesiTYPER: i got a friend who did a HOMEMADE TURBO on his 91 teg. hes gonna help me install the greddy if ever i buy it.

i ony know detonation will happen if i dont put a high octane like 91 and up.
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Tuning on a dyno is a wonderful way to work on this, but you need to understand that most piggyback fuel controllers do not compensate for atmospheric changes, so as the weather changes, so do your engine's needs..

i will go to the DYNO to make them tune it up.
so u mean by this is i need to tune my car everytime the weather change? cant i do that by using Apex SAFC?
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A great way to monitor your air/fuel would be by wide-band O2 systems that are available..These systems are much more accurate and "real-time" than a basic air/fuel guages..

what is the wide band O2 systems? are those the SAFC?

thank you the replies ;)
 

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a wide-band O2 system would involve an aftermarket sensor that responds much better than the stock O2 sensor
 

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smp606 said:
a wide-band O2 system would involve an aftermarket sensor that responds much better than the stock O2 sensor
Wide-band will read voltage higher and lower than what the factory 02 sensors read. This will help you tune your engine if you were to tune your engine based on A/F ratio. Most OE 02 sensors won't read below 12:1 and higher than 30:1(I think)A/F ratio. If you want to maintain a 10.5 or 11:1 a/f ratio and you are trying to do this with OE sensors, it would be impossible. A wide-band will actually read the lower a/f ratio so you can use it for tuning purposes.

I'm not sure if it actually responds faster than a factory 02 sensor.
 

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ƒ£‡Þ-Ю‡ƒ† said:
ok ive been here on this forum for awhile. i did my reasearch already but there are some questions that wasnt answered. i wanna make the car still reliable even im boosting (i wanted to boost to 10psi on greddy kit) what do i need to do?

this is what i know to make the car reliable :
change the pistons and rings
change the clutch to stage II and flywheel

and thats it? did i forgot something? what else do i need?

thank you very much
Too much science goes into this topic.

In a nut shell, it is a bad idea to turbocharge a high compression engine and run on street pump gas.
 

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it is not a bad idea to turbocharge a high compression engine. It comes down to fuel. besides the greddy kit i recommend adding the msd fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator. I have a friend running 12:1 compression on an impreza rs turbo. sounds high to me, and the car has ran great for over 2 years daily driven.
 

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rSaTvEeVrE said:
u will never be able to make the car 100% reliable. They sell a block guard for under 200 bucks. that might be a wise idea.
screw a block guard...they are notorious for dropping down and leaving you with a nice blown headgasket

happened to a friend of mine recently
 

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If a block guard is installed properly, you will not have this problem!! I own a machine shop and install these daily..I have never had a return problem from this..

Block guards should be installed by a reputable machinist/mechanic to ensure no bore distortion and proper fitment..Because they are not machined inside your block when they are made, there are often places of the block guard modified by the machinist to ensure a 100 percent fit..The block should also be honed after the block guard is installed to ensure no bore distortion..

As far as your turbo setup, there are a lot of things you need to be aware of when owning a non-factory turbo vehicle..your best bet is to employ the knowledge of a reputable machinist or mechanic to help you with your build to be sure you have a complete setup..there are a lot of different setups using different compression ratios, boost levels, and fuel tuning that can work successfully..90 percent of engine failures come from poor tuning and/or an incomplete setup..Budget problems often lead to incomplete setups, which in the long run can cost a fortune if and WHEN something does go wrong b/c of it..

You need to decide exactly what you are looking for and budget yourself accordingly in the beginning to get a complete setup that works well together..
 

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:dontknow: his was put in at a machine shop...i also know others who have had this problem and theirs was professionally installed

his is in the process of getting sleeved
 

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types03 said:
it is not a bad idea to turbocharge a high compression engine. It comes down to fuel. besides the greddy kit i recommend adding the msd fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator. I have a friend running 12:1 compression on an impreza rs turbo. sounds high to me, and the car has ran great for over 2 years daily driven.
Not trying to be an ass, but please elaborate what you said:
"It comes down to fuel........"

I can dump fuel until I mis-fire, but I sure won't detonate my engine.

There is a difference between running the proper grade of fuel and just run a lot of fuel.

12:1 is very high compression. In order to get it running, he would be running a very retarded ignition timing and\or very low boost, or he's not running on street pump gas. If he found a way to defeat physics, he should win a Nobel Prize. It is even difficult to run 12:1 compression in a NA motor on street pump gas without it wanting to ping and knock. Porsche's GT3 runs 11.7:1, and it was tuned to run on 93 octane or higher gasoline. People in California run into problems with the ECU making adjustments for the 91 octane gasoline. It dropped a good 10-15 whp for 911 GT3's in California.

And the funny thing is, the non STi EJ25's can't really handle boost well, so:dontknow:

I'm not saying that it couldn't work, but in a nutshell it is not a good idea to run boost with high compression and street pump gas. I even believe Cybernation's piston upgrade used in the stage 2 and higher are the lower 9 or 9.5:1 compression ratio.
 

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Fuel is not the only part of tuning integral to tuning a turbo setup..Ignition is also very important, as is a happy ratio between boost and compression ratio, along with appropriate fuel octane..These are just a few of the things to think about..

Retarding your ignition timing can be a temporary fix to prevent detonation in extreme conditions, but this should not be a fix to the situation..Excessive ignition retard can actually not only hurt performance, but also start the onset of preignition..When you retard the ignition timing excessively, you are basically "starting the fire late" in the combustion cycle..This could be to the point that when ignition is started, the piston has already begun acceleration back down the cylinder wall, causing the fire to "chase" the piston down the cylinder wall..Then when the exhaust valve begins to open combustion hasn't been completed, so the fire then races out the exhaust valve, causing excessive heating of the valve and combustion chamber..The piston crown does not have adequate time to cool before the next induction of new air/fuel mixture enters the equation..With this added heat to the piston crown, valves, combustion chamber, etc, the new air/fuel mixture is then heated, not only causing the mixture to change in density (you won't be getting as much air in during the induction as possible since the new air is getting excessive heat and expanding, which hurts performance), but also causing the mixture to detonate or in worst case preignite..Preignition is basically like a blow-torch; it can burn valves, destroy pistons, destroy spark plugs, etc..

If you are at a point of tuning a turbo kit that is not a bolt-on kit that was both dyno-tested and street driven for long enough to get reliable numbers from their engine tuning system, or if you are building a high performance turbo engine and are at the point of needing to modify your ignition maps through a standalone ECU, you need to have adequate knowledge of engine theory and tuning and understand that "quick fixes" are often just that, and may have costs themselves..
 

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MrBurner said:
:dontknow: his was put in at a machine shop...i also know others who have had this problem and theirs was professionally installed

his is in the process of getting sleeved
I am not trying to knock any shops, but I have never seen a correctly installed block guard cause a blown headgasket..

Were these setups using stock head bolts?? I have seen people "lift" heads from blocks from boost as little as 9 psi due to worn head bolts..Factory Honda head bolts are not a strong point of the motor, head studs or upgraded head bolts are a good idea, and I would NEVER reuse a used factory head bolt on a boosted vehicle..The extreme cylinder pressures of boost cause this problem..

I have seen people overheat cars with improperly installed blockguards or poor quality blockguards..Some older style blockguards do not have adequate cooling passages drilled into them, which could be a problem..And when installed, you should be making sure that they are being installed about 1/4 inch down into the bore..Anywhere above that does not allow adequate flow of coolant, causing an overheating condition, which YES, could blow a headgasket..If you notice the new Darton sleeve design as compared to the first design made for the B series Honda, they now have a small "trench" around the edge which gives more adequate coolant flow than the first style which did not have this..

Also, as I previously said, to "correctly" install a block guard, the block should be honed after the install of the block guard, ensuring no bore distortion..
 

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bluesiTYPER said:
Fuel is not the only part of tuning integral to tuning a turbo setup..Ignition is also very important, as is a happy ratio between boost and compression ratio, along with appropriate fuel octane..These are just a few of the things to think about..
Very true.

Retarding your ignition timing can be a temporary fix to prevent detonation in extreme conditions, but this should not be a fix to the situation..Excessive ignition retard can actually not only hurt performance, but also start the onset of preignition..When you retard the ignition timing excessively, you are basically "starting the fire late" in the combustion cycle..This could be to the point that when ignition is started, the piston has already begun acceleration back down the cylinder wall, causing the fire to "chase" the piston down the cylinder wall..Then when the exhaust valve begins to open combustion hasn't been completed, so the fire then races out the exhaust valve, causing excessive heating of the valve and combustion chamber..The piston crown does not have adequate time to cool before the next induction of new air/fuel mixture enters the equation..With this added heat to the piston crown, valves, combustion chamber, etc, the new air/fuel mixture is then heated, not only causing the mixture to change in density (you won't be getting as much air in during the induction as possible since the new air is getting excessive heat and expanding, which hurts performance), but also causing the mixture to detonate or in worst case preignite..Preignition is basically like a blow-torch; it can burn valves, destroy pistons, destroy spark plugs, etc..
That's why I brought up the point of "dumping fuel" on top of fuel.
This actually does help keeping the cylinder temp low. The un-processed fuel molecules absorts heat, and removes it from the combustion chamber. This is also necessary because the retarded timing increases EGT since most of the burning is done near\past the exhaust valves and further down in the exhaust manifold. The extra un-burnt fuel absorbs heat and actually disrupts the buring process. You are absolutely right that this is just a band-aide to cover up the problem, but that's how they are doing it.

Pre-ignition is not detonation......
 

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I know preignition is not detonation, but the excessive heat from detonation can lead into pre-ignition..There is a very distinct difference..

One reason race car tuners use this fuel dump would be for turbo spooling..this is where they can get an advantage from it..Programming the ECU to give you a temporary "dump" of fuel when a driver lifts throttle, and with this unburned fuel passing into the exhaust manifold with a very hot turbine, the fuel ignites and keeps the turbine spinning at very high rpms..then, when the driver engages throttle again, the turbine is spinning at very high speeds which eliminates the amount of turbo lag often seen from lifting throttle..This is very hard on the turbo as well as other components, which is why it is not utilized in daily driven street cars..it is a very popular setup in rally cars, where there are a lot of throttle lifts during stages, and where immediate power when necessary is vital to engaging some of the driving techniques used..in these scenerios, turbo longevity is not as important as turbos are replaced as often as necessary w/no contest..

But the thing to be careful of with fuel dumping is that with an excessive amount of unburned fuel inducted, you will not get an even burn and air/fuel droplets will not maintain ideal size and composition..This unburned fuel also has opportunity to get trapped in the area directly above the top piston ring, and can actually combust in this area, which can cause serious damage instantly or over time depending on the severity..

That is why in these Acura street cars, we definitely do not want to "band-aide" these setups, as many of these people are running stock motors or daily driven built motors where turbo and engine longevity are very important to the driver..this is where the magic of proper tuning comes into play..
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
dang long thread now. my head hurts now , i realllyyyyy need to learn more bout this set up. thanks for the information y'all. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
so how much did u guys spend on your turbos? greddy turbo kit or CN kit, turbo timer, boost controller?, clutch?flywheel? and etc?
 

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bluesiTYPER said:
I know preignition is not detonation, but the excessive heat from detonation can lead into pre-ignition..There is a very distinct difference..



......That's why they dump more fuel, to keep it cool...........

One reason race car tuners use this fuel dump would be for turbo spooling..this is where they can get an advantage from it..Programming the ECU to give you a temporary "dump" of fuel when a driver lifts throttle, and with this unburned fuel passing into the exhaust manifold with a very hot turbine, the fuel ignites and keeps the turbine spinning at very high rpms..then, when the driver engages throttle again, the turbine is spinning at very high speeds which eliminates the amount of turbo lag often seen from lifting throttle..This is very hard on the turbo as well as other components, which is why it is not utilized in daily driven street cars..it is a very popular setup in rally cars, where there are a lot of throttle lifts during stages, and where immediate power when necessary is vital to engaging some of the driving techniques used..in these scenerios, turbo longevity is not as important as turbos are replaced as often as necessary w/no contest..
For one thing, this is not a technique used for cylinder cooling. You are talking about anti-lag technology, and it utilizes the overlap time in the valvetrain to flow fuel molecules into the exhaust manifold, where the hot manifold surface ignites the fuel and keeps the turbine well fed with hot gases.

We are talking about using a/f ratio to achieve cylinder cooling, which is an event inside the cylinder. You are right, it does not apply to street cars, it isn't even what we were talking about.

But the thing to be careful of with fuel dumping is that with an excessive amount of unburned fuel inducted, you will not get an even burn and air/fuel droplets will not maintain ideal size and composition..This unburned fuel also has opportunity to get trapped in the area directly above the top piston ring, and can actually combust in this area, which can cause serious damage instantly or over time depending on the severity.

That is why in these Acura street cars, we definitely do not want to "band-aide" these setups, as many of these people are running stock motors or daily driven built motors where turbo and engine longevity are very important to the driver..this is where the magic of proper tuning comes into play.
Well, you see, it is hard to "properly" tune a high compression, high RPM, high pressure engine when you can only work with pump gas. The band-aid technique is really the only thing they have to make the cars streetable, it not just an Acura\Honda issue.
 
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