Acura RSX, ILX and Honda EP3 Forum banner
1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
651 Posts
Can we deduce anything if data logged timing DOES match the calibration timing?

(my mistake for posting this question in your other thread)
 

·
¡Yo quiero Twin Screw!
Joined
·
1,974 Posts
Isnt it just interpolating the number between the columns?
Maybe Im missing something?
 

·
glory to the hypnotoad
Joined
·
6,295 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Isnt it just interpolating the number between the columns?
Maybe Im missing something?
Yes. There are some folks seeing datalogs where the values are 2 degrees or so below the interpolated values. It's real, it isn't people reading the tables wrong or not understanding the interpolation from other cam angles or columns. It literally is using the wrong ignition values.
 

·
Mostly stock, Mostly
Joined
·
1,980 Posts
I would like to see datalogs. Can't find the other thread.

If memory serves, Hondata says they "think" they got the knock retard taken care of, maybe not. Is this happening all over the map or just at certain points? If it is repeatable, I wonder if resetting the ecu "clear security", and reloading the kal would would change the result?

luvmyrsx
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,749 Posts
I am having the issue with my car. At most rpm/loads I seem to be 2 or 3 degrees below the values in my tables. Between 1000 and 2000 RPM at WOT it is as much as 6 degrees lower. :eek:

Here's a thread on the Hondata forums with some more info:

http://hondata.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8286
Hondata said:
The ECU has many compensations to ignition timing, so the datalogged timing often will not match the calibration.
Hondata said:
There are about 40 ignition compensation tables, with many only used under certain cirumstances. If there is significant compensation it is usually from a parameter being well outside normal values - eg people who use a lower temperature thermostat.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,749 Posts
Found some more information on this on Hondata's forum. There is an IAT retard table but as far as I know you can't edit it in KManager, only by opening the .kal file in a text editor. Here are the settings in my cal:

Code:
[IATRetardLow]
; IAT ºF,Retard
0=86.196875,0
1=130.240625,5.25
2=175.4,10.75

[IATRetardHigh]
; IAT ºF,Retard
0=86.196875,0
1=130.240625,0
2=175.4,0
86F = 0 retard, 130F = 5.25 retard

My IATs were 106F which should work out to about ~3.4 deg retard. That's pretty close to what I was missing. What is weird though is Wayne says he got the exact ignition in his tables despite IATs of up to 150F!

Edit: Actually, that can't be my problem assuming IATRetardHigh is used at WOT - 0 degrees retard for all in that table.
 

·
Mostly stock, Mostly
Joined
·
1,980 Posts
Maybe zurmagus could post the kal and kdl being discussed here.

I looked at zurmagus's kal and kdl. Some observations. ECT is a little low 169.
On the parameters>closed loop tab under settings, Minimum short term fuel adjustment is set at minus 25%, and Maximum short term adjustment is set at 0%. The ecu can't add fuel. So maybe since it can't add fuel, the ecu is retarding ign to keep from knocking, or being too advanced in a lean condition. Although in wot he is running a little rich.

I would like to see what happens to ignition values when short term fuel trim values are set back to default values.

At 13.167 seconds mark on the graph the car goes from open driving to open cold for about half a second then into closed loop. His ignition stays at around 43 degrees. On my car, when it goes through that cycle, the ignition gets cut almost in half during the open cold state.

And just for the record, I posted yesterday's comment about 2 hours before Hondata posted their similar comments in the Hondata forum. I didn't copy his comments here.

luvmyrsx
 

·
Proud Type S Owner
Joined
·
132 Posts
Yeah I just took a look @ some of my datalogs and it is about 2 to 3 degrees lower as well. Hopefully Hondata can shed some more light on this.
 

·
Mostly stock, Mostly
Joined
·
1,980 Posts
On zurmagus datalog, along with the ignition values, if you look at cam and camcmd you will see camcmd running 1 degree below the maps also. That might not sound like much, but if the table calls for let's say 25 degrees, and cam cmd is 24 degrees wouldn't that put you in the 20 degree table instead of the 30 degree table?

luvmyrsx
 

·
glory to the hypnotoad
Joined
·
6,295 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
On zurmagus datalog, along with the ignition values, if you look at cam and camcmd you will see camcmd running 1 degree below the maps also. That might not sound like much, but if the table calls for let's say 25 degrees, and cam cmd is 24 degrees wouldn't that put you in the 20 degree table instead of the 30 degree table?

luvmyrsx
No. It interpolates the values between the 20 and 30 degree tables. The result of that math at 24 degrees is nearly identical to that of 25 unless there are drastic differences between 20 and 30.
 

·
Mostly stock, Mostly
Joined
·
1,980 Posts
Actually, I found some areas on the graph, on high cam, around the 2 second mark, rpm is 6855, cam should be 35 degrees, camcd is 34, and reading from the 30 degree table. It doesn't last long, if you zoom in to where there are only 3 seconds showing in the graph window you can see it, but it is enough to prove my theory, I think.

My car cam angle oscillates from where it should be to -1 degree. which is why instead of running a cam angle like 25 degrees, I run 24. Otherwise the car is bouncing back and forth between the 20 and 30 degree cam tables.

My experience is limited, but I don't think I have seen a cal with the cruising range at 40 degrees cam on the low cam.

luvmyrsx
 

·
glory to the hypnotoad
Joined
·
6,295 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Actually, I found some areas on the graph, on high cam, around the 2 second mark, rpm is 6855, cam should be 35 degrees, camcd is 34, and reading from the 30 degree table. It doesn't last long, if you zoom in to where there are only 3 seconds showing in the graph window you can see it, but it is enough to prove my theory, I think.

My car cam angle oscillates from where it should be to -1 degree. which is why instead of running a cam angle like 25 degrees, I run 24. Otherwise the car is bouncing back and forth between the 20 and 30 degree cam tables.

My experience is limited, but I don't think I have seen a cal with the cruising range at 40 degrees cam on the low cam.

luvmyrsx
You're confused. K-Pro doesn't switch between cam tables like a light switch, kmanager does that to put you on the table contributing the most data. If you're running 20 degrees ignition on the 30 degree table, and 22 degrees ignition on the 20 degree table, at 24, 25, and 26 degrees cam you will be running about 21 degrees ignition. It is quite normal for the cam angle to be slightly off from the camcmd because it's a closed loop oil actuated duty cycle system -- the only way it knows to add more oil to the advance or retard side of the cam gear to correct cam angle is when it goes off a bit and needs to correct it. 25 degrees camcmd will generally be 25 most of the time with peaks and valleys at 24 and 26 degrees. During that time, the values interpolated from the 20 and 30 degree tables are almost identical.

Let me give you an example using fuel values. If at X load Y rpm on the 30 degree table, it called for 3000 fuel units, and at the same load/rpm on the 20 degree table, it called for 2000 fuel units, when running at X load Y rpm at 26 degrees, k-pro would use 2600 fuel units and kmanager would show you the 30 degree table with 3000 fuel units. 25 degrees cam would run 2500 fuel units. 24 degrees would run 2400 fuel units.

That's how it works. It's not a light switch.
 

·
Mostly stock, Mostly
Joined
·
1,980 Posts
Thank you. That was explained very well, and good to know. The day I stop learning, I'll go back to chasing women.

luvmyrsx
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,749 Posts
I looked at zurmagus's kal and kdl. Some observations. ECT is a little low 169.
On the parameters>closed loop tab under settings, Minimum short term fuel adjustment is set at minus 25%, and Maximum short term adjustment is set at 0%. The ecu can't add fuel. So maybe since it can't add fuel, the ecu is retarding ign to keep from knocking, or being too advanced in a lean condition. Although in wot he is running a little rich.
ECT is low? I don't know if I have ever seen it above 175 if the car is moving...

As for the 0% short term, that tune was for open loop anyway I was just tinkering with those settings as an experiment. In any case the car removes the same amount of ignition when it is in open loop where the max s.trim value shouldn't even be in use.
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top