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from 2004
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Sorry to bump an old thread. Very interesting discussion! I came across this thread while researching about pairing aftermarket lowering springs with A-Spec struts. I found a great deal on Skunk2 springs and was wondering it'd be OK to pair them with my 1-year old A-Spec struts. I know some of you mentioned 1.5" drop is optimal for the RSX. I'm curious to know how you came up with that number? A scientific explanation would be great!

Also, will I get better handling with A-Spec springs or aftermarket lowering springs on A-Spec shocks? I feel like the A-Spec suspension is still a little too high to reduce most of the body roll.

Any help or inputs would be appreciated! :pray:
 

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A scientific explanation would be great!

Also, will I get better handling with A-Spec springs or aftermarket lowering springs on A-Spec shocks? I feel like the A-Spec suspension is still a little too high to reduce most of the body roll.
Actually when you lower a car, the higher the tendency it has to roll.

When you lower your car, your instantaneous roll center changes at a much great rate than your CG thus creating great body roll.

With the car at factory vehicle height or close to it, more of the geometric stiffness comes into play rather than when it's lowered.

If a car is slammed. You will start to see most of the geometric roll resistance go out the window and the car ends up relying on elastic stiffness to control body roll. What this means for you is to get your desired amount of body roll you will require heavy springs since the car is lowered which results in poor ride quality and can sacrifice the mechanical grip your car is otherwise able to produce.
 

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from 2004
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3,690 Posts
Actually when you lower a car, the higher the tendency it has to roll.

When you lower your car, your instantaneous roll center changes at a much great rate than your CG thus creating great body roll.

With the car at factory vehicle height or close to it, more of the geometric stiffness comes into play rather than when it's lowered.

If a car is slammed. You will start to see most of the geometric roll resistance go out the window and the car ends up relying on elastic stiffness to control body roll. What this means for you is to get your desired amount of body roll you will require heavy springs since the car is lowered which results in poor ride quality and can sacrifice the mechanical grip your car is otherwise able to produce.
Mark, that's very interesting. I looked at your showoff thread. Your car seems pretty low too. I just find it confusing that everyone says 1" drop is the best for RSX in terms of handling but everyone on CRSX (either for look or performance) is dropped lower than 1". I know I'm supposed to get aftermarket struts like Koni or Tokico to go with lowering springs or coilovers but I'm stuck with A-spec suspension now. Do you think my fairly new A-spec shocks will hold up for a while with aftermarket lowering springs that lower the car another inch on top of A-spec drop? :dontknow:
 

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Engineering
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1.5" drop is based on the cars CoG and roll center. most of the race cars you see are lowered for aero reasons. now you see that you can't have both, you must sacrifice one for the other. it's much easier to lower a car and put on stiffer springs than it is to build aero for the car that makes it lower. to answer your question, they will probably hold but i wouldnt put a guarantee on how long they will hold
 

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from 2004
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3,690 Posts
1.5" drop is based on the cars CoG and roll center. most of the race cars you see are lowered for aero reasons. now you see that you can't have both, you must sacrifice one for the other. it's much easier to lower a car and put on stiffer springs than it is to build aero for the car that makes it lower. to answer your question, they will probably hold but i wouldnt put a guarantee on how long they will hold
OK, so you're saying that you can either have aero/look or handling but not both? And race cars go so low for aero purpose?

I actually emailed Skunk2 and got a reply telling me that:

They will work with any OEM spec strut so the A-Spec struts should work fine. Blowing the shocks will not be an issue as long as you retain the factory bumpstops.
I know Skunk2 might just be saying that to get me to buy their springs but I don't understand how keeping the factory bumpstops would prevent the shocks from blowing? :confused:

Also, would putting Skunk2 springs (2" drop) on A-spec shocks be like putting 1" lowering springs on stock shocks? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think 1" drop on stock shocks can last a while?
 

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Engineering
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forget race cars, there are too many factors with those things that we might now know. many race cars have altered suspension mounting points so that changes the whole geometry. a lowered car doesn't mean that the handling is shitty, it just means it might not be as good as if it wasn't lowered as much. there are plenty of us on here that have won competitions with lowered cars. again, many factors could influence this (driver could be extremely good for instance). i would agree that with 1" drop on "stock" shocks, they probably won't blow.
 

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If...if...if you could lower the car without losing any suspension travel, or altering the suspension geometry, or exceeding an optimum spring rate, it would be a good thing. You'd have a lower center of gravity, less roll, and less wind resistance and you'd have a purpose built race car. But...but...but we're talking about lowering an RSX, and as ZZyzx said you lose a lot of suspension travel...not good, and you alter the suspension geometry detrimentally... not good. The optimum spring rate according to Carroll Smith in "Tune to Win" is the that rate which keeps the car off the ground and the bump stops, the rest is best dealt with using anti-roll bar and dampening, so if you have too stiff springs just to keep the car off the bump stops with the much reduced suspension travel you haven't gained anything. If you do all your racing on a perfectly smooth track, maybe you're OK, but I run on a rough track (Sebring) and the roads in Tampa/St. Pete are full of holes, so I'm sticking with the OEM ride height.
From post number 10 on this thread in Sept. 2007 (It helps if you read the whole thread and not just the last couple of posts)
 

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Honda-Tech Vet '05
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220 Posts
I just read the whole thread. Much I didn't understand, but i have a grasp. I came to the Conclusion In order to be 1 finger length above the tire and have optimal grip I will need "In my price range"

Progress Coilovers
Hardrace Roll Center Adjusters
15.9mm EM2 Front Sway Bar
22mm Progress Rear Sway Bar and Tie Bar

How does that sound?
 

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from 2004
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3,690 Posts
forget race cars, there are too many factors with those things that we might now know. many race cars have altered suspension mounting points so that changes the whole geometry. a lowered car doesn't mean that the handling is shitty, it just means it might not be as good as if it wasn't lowered as much. there are plenty of us on here that have won competitions with lowered cars. again, many factors could influence this (driver could be extremely good for instance). i would agree that with 1" drop on "stock" shocks, they probably won't blow.
well, here comes the question, what's too much? I'm aware that race cars have more than just coilovers but my car will never be a race car, it probably won't ever see a track. All I'm looking for is a clean look and sporty handling (better than stock). Hopefully those skunk2 springs won't wear out my A-spec shocks prematurely. If I could get 5 years out of them, I'd be happy. :)

Honestly, do you think A-spec would outperform a basic set of coilovers like Tein Basic or Megan coilovers given that both cars had no other suspension mods. :dontknow:
 

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Late Apexer
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5,962 Posts
Your biggest improvements in handling over stock are going to come from three sources.

#1 Tire choice
#2 Alignment specs
and #3 Damper choice

DO NOT MAKE THE COMMON MISTAKE OF OVERLOOKING ALIGNMENT SPECS, you can easily make or brake a cars handling prowess. More reading

but other wise... for a street car, coming from an old codger like my self, I would take the A-spec suspension over Tein or Megan any day. There is very little reason other then making your car "feel" like a stiff ass race car for a street going car to run Linear springs.

That and suspension tuning is best done slowly one tweak at a time. So... My $.02; Go with a suspension that has progressive rated springs (variable springs) that give you the ride height you are looking for. Tie them in with a good quality damper, if they didn't already come with some, and make sure you optimize the cars alignment. Then drive on it for a few weeks, see what you like or don't like and we'll tune from there. Baby steps, one at a time, will in the end give you a much better tuned car then if you went out and bought every thing under the sun right off the bat.
 

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from 2004
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3,690 Posts
Your biggest improvements in handling over stock are going to come from three sources.

#1 Tire choice
#2 Alignment specs
and #3 Damper choice

DO NOT MAKE THE COMMON MISTAKE OF OVERLOOKING ALIGNMENT SPECS, you can easily make or brake a cars handling prowess. More reading

but other wise... for a street car, coming from an old codger like my self, I would take the A-spec suspension over Tein or Megan any day. There is very little reason other then making your car "feel" like a stiff ass race car for a street going car to run Linear springs.

That and suspension tuning is best done slowly one tweak at a time. So... My $.02; Go with a suspension that has progressive rated springs (variable springs) that give you the ride height you are looking for. Tie them in with a good quality damper, if they didn't already come with some, and make sure you optimize the cars alignment. Then drive on it for a few weeks, see what you like or don't like and we'll tune from there. Baby steps, one at a time, will in the end give you a much better tuned car then if you went out and bought every thing under the sun right off the bat.
Great info! :thumbsup: I will definitely get a rear camber kit and follow those alignment specs after I get my skunk2 springs. My only concern is whether the A-spec dampers can support an additional 1" drop (on top of the original 1" drop for a total of 2" that the skunk2 springs provide).

The skunk2 springs do give me the ride height I'm looking for though. :love: I'm thinking as long as my A-spec shocks can last 5+ years, I can always get some Koni or Tokico shocks down the road. :dontknow:
 

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This is a good thread I can't resist bumping and I learned a lot from this. After reading this thread multiple times, I would like to ask a couple of newbie questions.

I chose to go with mugen ss for dd because it's the mid choice between A-spec and DC5R but I think the car and I suffers a lot of tramlining. Is tramlining mostly due to wheel + tire choice and alignment or all of these lowering the car chip in too?

I don't know what's stock height so I'm not sure how much lower it has been with mugen ss but word is about 1" lower front and back (may be a little bit more in the back or less in the front). The alignment printout shows that front camber is within factory spec and rear has very small neg. camber. I do understand we cannot adjust camber or caster on dc5. Is there any alignment setting that I could follow without adding any camber kit to the front or the rear.

thanks for creating such good discussion thread and sharing knowledge.
 

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This is a good thread I can't resist bumping and I learned a lot from this. After reading this thread multiple times, I would like to ask a couple of newbie questions.

I chose to go with mugen ss for dd because it's the mid choice between A-spec and DC5R but I think the car and I suffers a lot of tramlining. Is tramlining mostly due to wheel + tire choice and alignment or all of these lowering the car chip in too?

I don't know what's stock height so I'm not sure how much lower it has been with mugen ss but word is about 1" lower front and back (may be a little bit more in the back or less in the front). The alignment printout shows that front camber is within factory spec and rear has very small neg. camber. I do understand we cannot adjust camber or caster on dc5. Is there any alignment setting that I could follow without adding any camber kit to the front or the rear.

thanks for creating such good discussion thread and sharing knowledge.
Can't speak to tramlining. Mugen SS is a good choice because it lowers enough to make some improvements. Why would you not want to change your alignment specs to add more negative camber? What about getting an aftermarket camber kit? Stock specs, IMO, blow.
 

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Can't speak to tramlining. Mugen SS is a good choice because it lowers enough to make some improvements......
I just don't want to put in something aftermarket that will become a much bigger pain or another big pain by itself. I have tramlining to deal with so enough at hand. :D is there a good tramlining thread anyone have handy (I did search and read as much as I can already)?

I'm moving onto the OEM crash bolt thread and seems like a good idea. I still haven't found the info that they slip or not. I guess some front camber doesn't hurt as long as you aligned toe pretty good (that of course I'm refering to alignment and camber kit thread).

So many things learned today...my head hurts but I'm addicted to the good info that I can't stop reading. :thumbsup:

sorry if my reply/post causes thread hijacking or off topic.
 

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The CRSX Philosopher
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ive read this like 3 times, and i understand the acute and obtuse of the control arms thing fairly well. so essentially, the roll center adjuster ball joints will let you lower the car even more and retain performance? say -1" from stock height is good, and if the roll center ball joints are 1" longer than regular ball joints, it would push the wheel side of control arm down 1" right? therefore, allowing about another -1" of lowering? and if thats all true, how does the rear end like being that low, or does it not matter because you want the rear end to "slide out"(not literally, but understeer feeling right?), being FWD.

and essentially, an optimal suspension setup(for the front anyway) for a daily driven car that sees the mountains would include lowering ~2"s, BC ball joints, em2 sway bar(thinner and lets JDM headers clear), and possibly LCA spherical bushing(id assume great for wheel hop too)?

how would that all suite the back end, slap a thicker sway bar on and call it a day?

EDIT: and of corse allignment and some nice tries/rims.
 

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I have Tein SS Coil overs based on the information here I need to raise the car to almost the max height

can you give some feedback on this popular coil over

Also would i need a rear camber kit
 

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SAXJONZ
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I just read a lot information here. I know this thread is pretty old. Been dead for 6 years and all. I just bought a set of coilovers and hope to get a better feel for the car on the track and on the street. I was told the KW Variant 2 is not really well suited to track but is an overall really good coilover to have. I got the hard race bushings as I heard bad things about the poly bushings. In my experience (my motor mounts) they are probably correct in stating that they wear out fast if you do any track or autocross events.
I have noticed that lowering your car does mess with the handling pretty much. But that said with my stock suspension previous I found I couldn't really push it on the track as it would become unpredictable. Two friends let me drive their cars, one had Tein Flex or something like that. I was getting around fairly quick but noticed over steer going in to corners which was much more comfortable than the understeer previous but the tires were not the best stickies I have encountered but I could control it fairly well. I looked at rear trailing arms and it was close to level so I guess that is at the max to lower before handling really gets strange.
My other friends car had konis and it felt like garbage. Every corner massive oversteer that just drove me nuts.
I'm glad to hear that lowering actually impairs the handling as I was on stock suspension and wider direzza Z2's but when pushed to the limit car did actually feel very unstable hence what a few were referring to when they said that sticky tires only work so well until you reach the point of no return but at a much higher speed so yes, I completely understand how that really feels.
I am a motorcycle rider and deeply enjoy corners in Georgia, Tennessee and approach going around them in my car in much the same manner. I try to feel the distribution of weight and push in to a turn in a very smooth motion.
Contrarily, my friend was diving in to corners and abruptly changing the arc of travel causing the weight to shift around making car unstable. The difference between us was that I very smoothly chose the arc and felt the car and how it wanted to go slowly pushing the arc and very slowly making acceleration and turns in the steering wheel. At any rate, I'm sure I am not explaining it very clearly but the difference in the way the car would go around the turns was profound. I was quicker and smoother and the other way made the car get upset and caused the driver to correct and tires would break. Then I told him to ease in to the corners and he became much faster the smoother he would turn.
Anywhoo, I sure would like to talk with you guys who go to the track some time and get some real world feedback as opposed to armchair typers who believe all the hype advertisers throw at them. I've hesitantly made some major changes to the suspension and I hope it's for the better of the cars handling. I know that on my bike when I changed the springs and dampers in front made a world of difference speeding around those Georgian hills that seem to have a perfect rhythm to them unlike the mountains in Colorado which are much faster and corners feel very much out of sync with the natural rhythm. Hella more scenic though. God, I fucking love corners at speed on anything including the family toaster.
 

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Alright,
so I want to start a discussion about how ride height and suspension geometry affect one another. I've been told anything below 1.5" (some say even an inch) is compensating looks for handling. Why is this? Optimal roll center? Superior range of action? Bump Steer? I believe the key argument is Roll Center ... but I'm uncertain... do we want non-rolling weight transfer effects? Wouldn't this be optimal when the arms are almost parallel? If you take a look at the Spoon and BC DC5's, they are low... custom fabrication involved?

I love discussing/understanding suspension geometry, so let the input flow. 👍

-Caleb
Ideally the lower to the ground the better management of aero dynamics of the car. Weight distribution is another factor needed to be consider lowering the vehicle. I'd prefer coilover than lowering kit. But the need of dampening resistance or jounce and bounce must be calculated for distribution of weight to get to closer perfection. The question of what is the bounce/jounce rating of your shock, coilover springs or lowering springs? Go to a weighting station calculate the gross weight of your vehicle divide it into the 4 wheels gives you the load/weight of each wheel. Going into turns, picture the weight shifting to the side of the vehicle in relation to the road. Now figure out the pre load of the shocks, spring and rating in accordance with manufacturers spec. All this factoring would equal to the lowering & capability of your suspension. Always refer to manufacturer's spec for safety that should not be compromise. Think for another day of racing, be safe..
 
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