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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
After a comment SJRacer made to me about something Spoon's president, Mr. Ichishima, said regarding the DC5 chasis, I decided to investigate.

I found this article on TOV Asia, regarding thier own investigation into Spoon's choice to utilize the CL7 chasis (Accord Euro Type R/TSX platform). Here is an excerpt.

... "Just a few interesting annecdotes from my interview on this car. I specifically asked Ichishima why he chose to field the CL7 Accord Euro-R instead of more 'logical choices' (to us enthusiasts, that is) like the DC5 Integra Type-R or the EP3 Civic Type-R. After all, those who have been following the BEST MOTORing/HOT VERSION videos knows that stock-to-stock, the DC5 and the EP3 are very much faster than the CL7 (Accord Euro-R) on the race-track. However, Ichishima's answer took me by surprise. He doesn't think the DC5 is as good a base as the CL7. In fact, he admits to be unimpressed with the DC5 as a base for modifications. 'It's based on a van', he says, 'it's a Stream Coupe !'. Similarly the EP3 to him is a 'Stream hot-hatch'. The CL7 Accord Euro-R to him is the best all-round current generation Type-R model made by Honda.

Controversial though Ichishima's statements are, let us take a closer look at the reasons. In many ways the design profile for the Stream was the base for the DC5. The K20A engine first appeared in the Stream before being tuned for the DC5. Furthermore the biggest discussion point amongst enthusiasts was Honda's decision to discard the double wishbone suspension for the front, replacing it with the MacPershon strut design. However the DC5 was specifically designed from scatch (using the same base as the Stream though) to be an all-out FF performance coupe. Many of the DC5's features are things we enthusiasts holds important : Recaros, 2-pot Brembo calipers, Chrome-Moly flywheel, etc. But Ichishima's response to these is that he feels some of us may have been too enticed by these features. He confess to a fondness for the old DC2 Integra Type-R and that the B-series engine, especially the B18C SpecR is to him still one of the all-time best engines Honda has ever made.

Now, before we go into a debate over Ichishima's statements above, I need to point out the 'difference in culture' factor that I highlighted in my main article. Again here is where I feel a difference in interpretation in language is at play. I had a rather long discussion with Ichishima and my personal opinion is that Ichishima does not mean to say that either the DC5 or the EP3 are bad cars. Indeed I do believe he thinks highly of these models - he parks a 'Spoon DC5' right in front of his Type-One head office. I think what he actually means is that the CL7 has a higher potential for modifications - he was probably able to extract a higher performance level from it than either the DC5 or the EP3 for professional level racing. Indeed in recent HOT VERSION videos, both the DC5 and EP3 were not able to take on a modified Toyota MR-S that had an engine swap from the Celica. And the MR-S took the DC5 and the EP3 due to its much better handling. I think this is not due to the FF configuration rather more that the MacPershon strut may have limitations for all-out modifications for performance. By comparison, the CL7 Accord Euro-R retains the more desirable double wishbone suspensions for both front and rear. Stock-to-stock, the CL7 loses to the DC5 & EP3 mainly due to its inferior power-to-weight ratio (being around 200kg heavier) but of course for competitive endurance racing where cars are stripped bare and minimum weights are enforced, this biggest archilles heel of the CL7 Accord Euro-R is no longer of any significance.

Pretty harsh comments about the DC5 from a highly respected Honda tuner, don't you think? :dontknow:
 

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Thats really jacked up.
So he is saying the RSX's suspension design sucks.
Why would Honda cme out with a new suspension design not better than the ladt generationb double wishone suspension?
 

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Well there's always going to be a better platform out there, and advancement technology doesn't always necessarily mean and advancement in performance. (It's usually an economic thing :p) Nonetheless I still regard my car as having a potential to it that will someday satisfy me. (Once I put in my k20a along with every suspension mod available ;))
 

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I don't know why they made the RSX with macphearson struts if they mad the TSX with double wishbone, I mean I remember hearing an Acura spokesman saying how the RSX's Macphearson strut is supposed to outperform the double wishbone suspension blah blah in some movie of the release of the RSX I saw, but I guess that's just all bullcrap advertising.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Honda really screwed the pooch with the MacPherson setup. Every race team that is running the DC5 makes the same comment: the new suspension has taken ALL their time and effort to overcome. I guess Spoon said screw it. :shakehead
 

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BMW use macpherson strut fronts......can't be that bad....they handle great! I think most people regard the double wishbone set up as being superior because there is much more data on spring rates for that setup. this guy has been tuning double wishbone for a long time and is probably thinking "if it aint broke don't fix it"
 

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btappan said:
BMW use macpherson strut fronts......can't be that bad....they handle great! I think most people regard the double wishbone set up as being superior because there is much more data on spring rates for that setup. this guy has been tuning double wishbone for a long time and is probably thinking "if it aint broke don't fix it"
BMWs are rear wheel drive cars. Big difference. And having owned a M3 I have to say they are not perfect either. As much as I love my RSX, I must admit that I missed the front double wishbone big-time when I switched to the RSX. Stock, my RSX required constant steering corrections in fast tight curves. It is much better now that I have the Mugen SS, but I can see why Spoon would want to concentrate on a car that does not require a lot of suspension work just to get it to handle the way they want.
 

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MacPherson struts save a lot of space in the engine compartment over a double wishbone setup. I also thought it was cheaper to mass-produce...
 

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It may be difficult to fine-tune the macpherson strut front set-up that our cars use but once the key is unlocked, the potential to make it greater than the best of double wishbone tuning becomes clearer :dontknow: Honda set out to make a worthy successor to the DC2. Besides the fact that some economical costs had to be taken into account, I highly doubt that their R&D fumbled with the decision to have macphersons in the front. Sure, it's a factory performance car but what is Honda's reputation in motorsports? If this problem was so significant, I don't think it would blend well with what accomplishments Honda has already done for their older cars.
 

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Well, first of all, he doesn't say anything shocking to begin with. I'm surprised with a lot of the glorification of the RSX being as it is Acura's lowest priced offering and intended to be an upscale front wheel drive commuting hatchback. Of course it's a problem for the enthusiast that they went with macphersons up front, but Honda did what it did for the market the car was made for. Remember the Civic commercials about room for 3 rear passengers due to the macphersons up front?

Honestly, I'm not all that concerned about what SpoonSports thinks and does. I think the Japanese race companies are overrated. Mugen? Spoon? Please, for the price of a fan switch and an "official spoon sports magnetic drain bolt" I can have extra horsepower from an american company. Horsepower seems to be a minor detail for these companies, you can buy all sort of products from them except products that produce power.

In other words... if I was going to blow thousands on a Mugen suspension, I would have started with an s2000.
 

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The RSX is SOO high too. I don't just mean the stock SUV look, but over the previous Integra I think they made the roof line like 3" higher. I think the RSX even looks a bit funny on the highway from behind sometimes cause it's so narrow and high. Throw in the stock 50lb moonroof that Type S owners are stuck with and you get a lot of sway.
 

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i agree about he ride height,, but lower it 2 inches and it pulls over a .90g in the slalom... no one can tisk at those numbers... in fact .. the progress group can pull over 1 g with stock shocks...
 

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vash_the_stampede said:
i agree about he ride height,, but lower it 2 inches and it pulls over a .90g in the slalom... no one can tisk at those numbers... in fact .. the progress group can pull over 1 g with stock shocks...
Progress pulled over 1g HERE with coilovers and some basic bolts-ons. I agree that's an AMAZING number, especially since it was on street tires. You'd expect a tuner like Spoon to get much more than 1g, especially with no moonroof.
:dontknow:
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
not your Type said:
Progress pulled over 1g HERE with coilovers and some basic bolts-ons. I agree that's an AMAZING number, especially since it was on street tires. You'd expect a tuner like Spoon to get much more than 1g, especially with no moonroof.
:dontknow:

Unfortunately, there's much more to suspension tuning than pulling Gs. The MacPherson setup threw off everything every tuner knew about shock bound, rebound, spring rates, camber/caster, toe, etc, etc. They had to start back at square one and relearn what settings gave what characteristics. The double-wishbone setup they had all worked on/perfected for five years, so each new model that came along only required fine tuning.

I do agree though that it just sound like Spoon is too lazy to learn the setup. It's not like the MacPherson setup is inferior... they're just use to the other.
 

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I just lost respect for spoon... how do you admitt to quiting especially when the one constant is change... all suspension setups will meet their end...anywayz I am not making a race car just something that is faster than most if not all FF sportcompacts neonSRT, civics, sunfires,focuses and caveliers... the list can go on but y its late :boring:
 

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Like the bottled-up potential that the K-series engine has, I think it's only a matter of time before the suspension bug is tapped for it's more profound advantages.
 

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ShoDaoGUN said:
It may be difficult to fine-tune the macpherson strut front set-up that our cars use but once the key is unlocked, the potential to make it greater than the best of double wishbone tuning becomes clearer :dontknow: Honda set out to make a worthy successor to the DC2. Besides the fact that some economical costs had to be taken into account, I highly doubt that their R&D fumbled with the decision to have macphersons in the front. Sure, it's a factory performance car but what is Honda's reputation in motorsports? If this problem was so significant, I don't think it would blend well with what accomplishments Honda has already done for their older cars.
Most of the professional race teams that run a RSX in the US redesign the front suspension for better suspension geometry. They change out the stock front mounting points for new mounting points. Changing mounting points i would consider to be a lot of work. It's no doubt that RSX's MacPherson front strut design will need a lot more work before it will be perfected. In that reason, i can see why Mr. Ichisima decided to go with the CL7 base as their new race car. But to call the RSX and EP3 basically a mini-van, now that hurts.
 

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This is a repost, like a month two months ago I think. YEah! I was suprise what Ichishima said about the DC5. WOW! No comment. :thumbsup:
 

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honda r **** why diddnt they put a double-wishbone suspension in the front, it's supposed 2 be a sports car for god's sake
 
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