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Meth Blow Speed = my life
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Discussion Starter #21
so i noticed you said you picked up 20whp with the 14gph jet and a 3 inch pulley over the 3.15 with less timing?

am i understanding this correctly that you could theoretically run more timing? and increase the gain to an even larger gap then 20whp? and yet still be safe as meth itself is like an octane booster as well as a temperature control?

i know the water is strictly for temp but meth does octane and temp correct?
Here is the big picture...COULD I gain more power with more ignition...probably. How much??? From the tests I have done the gains will be MINIMAL...and the risk of stressing the bottom end does not equal the power gained from pushing 3-5 more degrees of ignition.

water actually acts as a octane booster...check out the link I posted to AIS's website. I could run more timing, however the gains I saw on the dyno were not enough to justify stressing the bottom end of my motor. At 11psi 25/26 degrees was the max I decided to push. At 15psi (13psi with cooling) I am pushing 23 degrees...you wont see much more gains past that...and even if you do its not something I am going to recommend. The gains are not enough (3-7whp) to justify taking that risk

Nice write-up!

Questions, though: Where did you wind up mounting the nozzle/t-fitting for the water/meth injection?

I would think the closer to the IM (in the plenum runners) would be optimal, but curious as to what Rodney had suggested to you, if anything.

Is the water/meth pump you are running continuous? If so, isn't it engaged as soon as you have electrical power? Are you worried about it possibly pooling up in your charge piping/IM at all?
You can see where I mounted the T-fitting on that last picture I posted. It has the checkvalve, then the T-fitting, then it leads to the two nozzles Im running.

As far as the nozzle location...with a ROOTS STYLE SUPERCHARGER...the nozzle location really doesnt matter since the supercharger is churning up the methanol and distributing it once the air is charged. I do NOT recommend placing the nozzles AFTER the blower as the pump will have to work against the pressure of the blower and you will not have the added cooling of the blower casing....so place all of your nozzles before the blower (order or location doesnt matter due to the blower distribution of methanol)

The pump I have has an internal regulator that keeps 150psi in the lines...once that pressure drops below 150psi it will "click" and re-pressurize the lines. So my nozzles are seeing 150psi of pressure all the time. I am not worried about pooling in my IM because my methanol ONLY sprays when I am at 5psi of boost and above 4100RPM, which at this point in time there is enough air moving through the motor to keep the methanol from pooling. With the amount of air that the K20 motor flows through its head with the roots style supercharger...you will not have a problem with pooling...and if you do...you will experience bogging WAY before you collect methanol in the manifold.

How about those tapping skillzzzz and ep3 conversation..


Good work Sam.

ps. did you ever secure your nozzle? lol
I actually went against the instructions for my last nozzles suggestions of using a 11/32 bit and used a smaller once since my last tap stripped...and it WORKED!! I'll try to find the size bit I used this time around, but its not really important since Im not recommending to use that kind of nozzle anyway...AIS can supply a much better nozzle and even has hex heads to allow for easy removal.
 

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Meth Blow Speed = my life
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Discussion Starter #22
Thanks for the very nice and detailed write up!!

One comment: On your two hp plots, the first one stops at 90 mph, and the second stops at 100mph. You can only really compare power at the same rpm/speed, so reading from the second plot at 90, it looks like you are making around the exact same amount of power as in the first plot. I'm not trying to be critical, but I think that this distinction is important! Correct me if you were in a different gear or tire size or something though.
These were on two different transmissions so I tried to keep the ratio as close as possible.

1st graph was on the 6spd tranny and the 2nd graph was on the 5spd EP3 transmission.

The difference in ratio should actually prove that I had even MORE power for the 2nd graph than the 1st graph, since the 2nd was done with a longer gear ratio and still made more power.
 

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These were on two different transmissions so I tried to keep the ratio as close as possible.

1st graph was on the 6spd tranny and the 2nd graph was on the 5spd EP3 transmission.

The difference in ratio should actually prove that I had even MORE power for the 2nd graph than the 1st graph, since the 2nd was done with a longer gear ratio and still made more power.
Yup, gotcha. I was just looking at it again and wondering why the torque was higher for plot two even though the power was less, which made me sure it had to be a gearing/tire difference. Now the fact that the second plot is uncorrected means that you were making even more power in plot two than it shows:thumbsup:
 

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Meth Blow Speed = my life
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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Excellent write up!

What are your IATs cruising? Considering you dont have any intercooling until WOT.

What were your iats getting up to before you switched over to a 14gph?

Any way to fabricate a air to air intercooler?

Why didnt you pick up spark on the 14 gph dyno?
Cruising IAT's highly depend on ambient temperatures and how hard I've been running the car and how long the car has been sitting while the motor is hot. To answer your question in a short response...my IAT's do not exceed 110 degrees THUS far after several pulls and time for the motor to heat soak, which is NOT dangerous!.

HOWEVER!!! I have NOT had the chance to test IAT's during hot summer days! This is still new ground and I have not had ambient temperature exceed 75 degrees yet...so once the 115 degree North Carolina Summer temps come around I can NOT give you a definite answer on how HOT cruising IAT's can get. If you want my honest prediction however, I feel the cruising IAT's are not a concern since we are at low load and I've seen stock RSX's run up to 160/170 IAT's with the crappy stock air box.

Air to air intercooler...you'll have to research Redshift product for that

The dyno didnt pick up spark due to the interference from my RC750 injectors + who knows what else. There is a lot of electrical interference going on with the car and its something that Im still working on trying to figure out.

nice write up i cant wait to see what you put down. for those of you with k24's with lower redlines when are u engaging first and second stage?

edit: i see you are running two nozzles, but are u running both at the same time constantly? or is the second one on a solenoid?
I am engaging both the 14gph and 4gph nozzles at the same time. No stages on this setup. Which is why its so amazing that our motors can take 18gph nozzle spray at 4100rpm (granted Im pushing 15psi on the eaton, but still....thats a LOT)

Dyno is coming soon.
 

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Meth Blow Speed = my life
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Discussion Starter #25
Yup, gotcha. I was just looking at it again and wondering why the torque was higher for plot two even though the power was less, which made me sure it had to be a gearing/tire difference. Now the fact that the second plot is uncorrected means that you were making even more power in plot two than it shows:thumbsup:
:)

Yup!

Im just trying to be modest so people dont expect something unrealistic if they choose to try this route.
 

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NO MAAM
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Great info Sam, I have been following the other thread and this is just great work you and Rodney are doing. Ordering my kit today!
 

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Hawks
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Cruising IAT's highly depend on ambient temperatures and how hard I've been running the car and how long the car has been sitting while the motor is hot. To answer your question in a short response...my IAT's do not exceed 110 degrees THUS far after several pulls and time for the motor to heat soak, which is NOT dangerous!.

HOWEVER!!! I have NOT had the chance to test IAT's during hot summer days! This is still new ground and I have not had ambient temperature exceed 75 degrees yet...so once the 115 degree North Carolina Summer temps come around I can NOT give you a definite answer on how HOT cruising IAT's can get. If you want my honest prediction however, I feel the cruising IAT's are not a concern since we are at low load and I've seen stock RSX's run up to 160/170 IAT's with the crappy stock air box.

Air to air intercooler...you'll have to research Redshift product for that

The dyno didnt pick up spark due to the interference from my RC750 injectors + who knows what else. There is a lot of electrical interference going on with the car and its something that Im still working on trying to figure out.



I am engaging both the 14gph and 4gph nozzles at the same time. No stages on this setup. Which is why its so amazing that our motors can take 18gph nozzle spray at 4100rpm (granted Im pushing 15psi on the eaton, but still....thats a LOT)

Dyno is coming soon.
yea sorry i read this forum before the chat thread. that is pretty cool that the motor is taking 18gph. im also curious to when you have ur vtec engaged vs your meth engagement point. which comes first? im also curious to see how this setup would work on the k24..... you think it would require more/ handle even more?

i plan on running a k24 with a 2.8 bp and the new accord cp. i am thinking i will be around 13-14psi, but will also be on an aftercooler. but i think i am going to go ahead and invest in a dual nozzle setup and do 18 all together since i plan on being at the same boost levels.

also i know you are running 50/50 mix. but i plan on running 70/30 mix. do you think that will affect anything differently?

also you mentioned that you are going through the meth alot faster and upgraded the tank size. well how much faster are you going through it? when i was talking to rodney he said that that new 3 gallon tank should last around a summers worth of driving depending on your driving style but i should get a summers worth... how long do u think it will last?
 

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Meth Blow Speed = my life
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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
yea sorry i read this forum before the chat thread. that is pretty cool that the motor is taking 18gph. im also curious to when you have ur vtec engaged vs your meth engagement point. which comes first? im also curious to see how this setup would work on the k24..... you think it would require more/ handle even more?

i plan on running a k24 with a 2.8 bp and the new accord cp. i am thinking i will be around 13-14psi, but will also be on an aftercooler. but i think i am going to go ahead and invest in a dual nozzle setup and do 18 all together since i plan on being at the same boost levels.

also i know you are running 50/50 mix. but i plan on running 70/30 mix. do you think that will affect anything differently?

also you mentioned that you are going through the meth alot faster and upgraded the tank size. well how much faster are you going through it? when i was talking to rodney he said that that new 3 gallon tank should last around a summers worth of driving depending on your driving style but i should get a summers worth... how long do u think it will last?
Damn...full of questions:) Ok...here we go...

#1 My VTEC engagement is 4000 and my meth engagement is 4100

#2 As far as this working on a K24...that is 100% speculation right now. IF I had to make a guess, I would assume that the K24 motor flows very similar to the K20 and would require a similar amount of methanol. Again this is an assumption and not a fact...as I have never tested a K24

#3 With a 70/30 mixture you will actually need to spray MORE. As I stated in the original post, water can NOT be tuned around and is what causes bogging, so the 70/30 mixture will have less water allowing for more spray. As was mentioned in the other water/meth thread, I have had NO experience with changing mixture concentrations and I can only talk on 50/50 mixture. My OPINION on this which you guys can take or reject...I have proven that the 50/50 mixture works and works well, even with these high pressures so why go with more methanol? I also do not feel comfortable relying on the blower to distribute the methanol 100% evenly, opening up the possibility of a cylinder running lean, and the more methanol you spray, the more you are opening up that possibility. This is a VERY unknown area and could be 100% paranoia, however I do think it merits some consideration.

What I can say with 100% certainty is that the less methanol you use, the "safer" you are from this possible problem, the less heat you will be able to remove (water removes more, yet meth removed heat faster...so its a give and take), the more expensive your refills will be, and 70/30 mixture has not been tested...so its up to you guys on that one.

#4 This 3 gallon tank looks AWESOME...and I do not have one installed yet. From looking at my 1 gallon tank, I think 2-3months of HARD Driving is very obtainable with the 3 gallon tank. With a lighter foot even longer...it really depends on your driving. My 1 gallon tank with this new setup seems like its going FAST...so I would give it a month or so...however this is with 2nd and 3rd gear pulls DAILY:) This 3-gallon tank seems to be the way to go.

Hope that answers your questions,

Sam
 

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first i wanna say this is a great thread. thanks for the responsis.

i'm gonna be running around 11-12psi i'm guessing as i hit 10psi now on a 3.15 and will be going to a 3inch pulley with meth.

would you say your target AFR while tuning would be a bit leaner now since the meth kits essentially add octane? is 11.7 no longer the goal? would we wanna tune for lets say a leaner 12.5 afr since we'll be at a much higher octane? or would we still tune the same?

i know you said don't get carried away with timing. i was thinking of going somewhere in the 26-27 degree range at 11-12psi depending on how the car likes that on the dyno obviously.

but was wondering if more power could be made with a bit leaner AFR since essential meth is like running race gas?

is this correct or am i way off in my logic?
 

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Meth Blow Speed = my life
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Discussion Starter #31
first i wanna say this is a great thread. thanks for the responsis.

i'm gonna be running around 11-12psi i'm guessing as i hit 10psi now on a 3.15 and will be going to a 3inch pulley with meth.

would you say your target AFR while tuning would be a bit leaner now since the meth kits essentially add octane? is 11.7 no longer the goal? would we wanna tune for lets say a leaner 12.5 afr since we'll be at a much higher octane? or would we still tune the same?

i know you said don't get carried away with timing. i was thinking of going somewhere in the 26-27 degree range at 11-12psi depending on how the car likes that on the dyno obviously.

but was wondering if more power could be made with a bit leaner AFR since essential meth is like running race gas?

is this correct or am i way off in my logic?
You are close...

A/F ratios need to stay around the 11.5-11.7 range...at least thats what I've been doing. I have not tested leaning out the mixture, but I would assume that you will make more power. Is it safe? IDK...however I personally would not go leaner than 12.0 when running this much boost. The lean A/F ratios can increase temps pretty fast, and from what I've heard...the fact that we are even flirting with 12.0 as an A/F ratio...is a little risky.

11-12 psi you should avoid going over 25 degrees of ignition. I did the dyno tests there and the max power (before the torque curve began to wobble) around 24/25 degrees of ignition. You can gain 3whp past that, but its starting to stress the bottom end.

I am running 23 degrees at 13/14psi right now and I will go on the dyno again to test out ignition, however I have a strong feeling that I will not see much gain as I increase it. MAYBE I WILL:dontknow:. Cant speak until I try it...but at 11psi I HAVE tried it and you wont see gains past 25 degrees worth the risk.
 

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Hawks
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Damn...full of questions:) Ok...here we go...

#1 My VTEC engagement is 4000 and my meth engagement is 4100

#2 As far as this working on a K24...that is 100% speculation right now. IF I had to make a guess, I would need to know what kind of head the K24 would have as the flow of air is what determines the amount of methanol that can be used. If the K24 head flows as good as the K20, then I would assume you can use as much or maybe even more than what I am seeing now. That is my ASSUMPTION...not a fact.

#3 With a 70/30 mixture you will actually need to spray MORE. As I stated in the original post, water can NOT be tuned around and is what causes bogging, so the 70/30 mixture will have less water allowing for more spray. As was mentioned in the other water/meth thread, I have had NO experience with changing mixture concentrations and I can only talk on 50/50 mixture. My OPINION on this which you guys can take or reject...I have proven that the 50/50 mixture works and works well, even with these high pressures so why go with more methanol? I also do not feel comfortable relying on the blower to distribute the methanol 100% evenly, opening up the possibility of a cylinder running lean, and the more methanol you spray, the more you are opening up that possibility. This is a VERY unknown area and could be 100% paranoia, however I do think it merits some consideration.

What I can say with 100% certainty is that the less methanol you use, the "safer" you are from this possible problem, the less heat you will be able to remove (water removes more, yet meth removed heat faster...so its a give and take), the more expensive your refills will be, and 70/30 mixture has not been tested...so its up to you guys on that one.

#4 This 3 gallon tank looks AWESOME...and I do not have one installed yet. From looking at my 1 gallon tank, I think 2-3months of HARD Driving is very obtainable with the 3 gallon tank. With a lighter foot even longer...it really depends on your driving. My 1 gallon tank with this new setup seems like its going FAST...so I would give it a month or so...however this is with 2nd and 3rd gear pulls DAILY:) This 3-gallon tank seems to be the way to go.

Hope that answers your questions,

Sam
thanks sam. good info. sorry i just have lots of questions on my mind and want to try and get everything thought out and then go too it. tomorrow i will be ordering a dual setup as well. rodney said i should go with a 4 and a 14 so i will be at 18 like you.

as far as the k24 head, i am not sure, i plan on running an 06 tsx head and i beleive it actually flows very well being that the 06 got some improvements over the older engines. hence the more aggressive cams. but i couldnt tell you for sure.

now you got me wondering about the mix. it would be cheaper 50/50 like you said. i just thought maybe it would be able to squeeze some more power out of it, but then like you said i might need the water to balance the cooling. also i beleive sharper is running a 70/30 mix and seems to have no problems and he is also on 17gph? . maybe he will chime in.

all i can say is i really want to see your dyno or i want my pulley back!
 

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thanks sam. good info. sorry i just have lots of questions on my mind and want to try and get everything thought out and then go too it. tomorrow i will be ordering a dual setup as well. rodney said i should go with a 4 and a 14 so i will be at 18 like you.

as far as the k24 head, i am not sure, i plan on running an 06 tsx head and i beleive it actually flows very well being that the 06 got some improvements over the older engines. hence the more aggressive cams. but i couldnt tell you for sure.

now you got me wondering about the mix. it would be cheaper 50/50 like you said. i just thought maybe it would be able to squeeze some more power out of it, but then like you said i might need the water to balance the cooling. also i beleive sharper is running a 70/30 mix and seems to have no problems and he is also on 17gph? . maybe he will chime in.

all i can say is i really want to see your dyno or i want my pulley back!
Wessiah was able to confirm that the 06+ TSX head flows slightly less than a k20a2/z1 head, the difference is very small.
 
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Boost negates any of those differences. It's only an issue for motors that have to pull air into the head, which is not us.
 

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Boost negates any of those differences. It's only an issue for motors that have to pull air into the head, which is not us.
Agreed. Only mentioned it because himsweet and stwatson were inquiring :thumbsup: I will be using the k24a2 head shortly as well
 
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loza can you confirm if thomas is using a 14gph? im pretty sure that is what he is using. also curious to know what kind of mixture he is using.
No clue. He's in the Caribbean, on his honeymoon now. Why don't you go back and review his posts in the other meth thread? Or Sharper's, for that matter?
 
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