I doubt that they are all hype. Just because IPS has financial problems, doesnt mean their products dont make power. The ductile iron K2's made good power, and the 8620's are supposed to make more. :dontknow:

 

I'm saying the 8620 is all hype.

 

How do you know?

 

Because companies have KNOWN about 8620 for a LONG time now, and if it was really so much better in every way, wouldn't they ALL be using it?

Though I can't recount word for word everything I have been told and every answer I've gotten when I questioned the 8620, the general consensus from EVERYONE that isn't ron that I've talked to said it's pointless. the only cars john at hytech will put 8620 into (unless someone specifically asks for it) is straight up race cars. He'll have to explain to you why but it has nothing to do with power because there is no power difference.

 

I'll have to disagree with that too. Whatever the problems I have with Ron as a businessman, his products make power. Do they make enough to justify the cost and hassle? Thats for each person to decide for themselves.

 

Well, it could be that the billet shafts dont make any more power than the ductile irons. But, it seems totally plausible to me. Camshaft manufacturers might not use billet stock due to its higher cost. Which could put the cams out of peoples price range.

 

wow you're a sucker for marketing.

 

No im not a sucker for marketing. Im a sucker for things that make power.

You both are right, I have no idea if the 8620's make anymore power than the ductile irons. But, if they do make more power, im all for them.


**Edit - It really doesnt matter, because after all of this I wont be purchasing those cams anyway.

 

Well basically, the short version is this...someone on here (I don't want to name forum names) made a thread about IPS stuff. I was checking up on it from time to time, made a post here and there. I posted my opinion and disbelief on certain things. Either someone told ron or he still trolls around here, but ron emailed me (not the first time, either) and basically said that I was spreading rumors and shit, even though I clearly stated in my post several times that it was my personal thought and opinion, not fact at all.

The problem is, you don't have the facts and you go ahead and make an opinion. Opinion based on what? Have you taken any courses on Materials? Have you ever been part of an R&D team? Do you know anything about 8620 beyond what this site tells you? And it puzzles you that Ron would email you and pretty much tell you that you don't know what you are talking about??

I am an EE not an ME so I do not know much about 8620 and that is why I don't comment about it or state my opinion on what it can possibly do and how it does it.

 

I've read enough about the metal differences to know that the difference in materials will not provide a gain in power. Mostly friction differences and heat resistance. And no, it doesn't "puzzle" me why, it's just ridiculous that something like that even happens when HE hasn't even explained fully why it makes more power. Just, "here's this dyno with 8620" and every IPS nutswinger goes "OMGZ mo' powah!" and doesn't question it at all. When someone else shows me hardcore proof in a realistic environment (i.e. normal user, NOT the guy SELLING the cams) that they do increase power in the same car on the same dyno with the same mods, then I'll stand corrected. Until then, you or I can't prove that 8620 makes a bit of difference at all. And again, if it was so great, why don't more companies use it? Sure, price would increase a bit but if the gains are there, people WILL pay.

 

woah, now easy with the hostility you people. We all own an RSX so lets all be friends...lol. And nobody is here is bagging on IPS products. We can all agree they make great products that do make good power, but Ron just doesn't know how to run a business. Its Ron we're bagging on, not their cams or w/e. And i'd have to agree with kevin, i don't see how 8620 would make more power than iron if all the cam specs are the same, except material. When i saw the dyno comparison on IPS website, that puzzled me.

You don't see how using 8620, a lighter material, would make more Power then Ductile Iron for Camshafts? While I am not sure about the exact weight difference I believe using the 8620 increases QC on Cam production because the Grinder is more accurate.

There are some Dyno comparisons and interesting discussion about the differences between 8620 & Ductile Iron on the post link below, check it out if you're interested.

http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22927

 

I will check out that thread as well because I wouldn't mind learning more about it. Not that I know alot to begin with. Always willing to pick up new info.

 

Yes until someone with materials knowledge tells us how it is better or not better, then NONE of us can make any comments or state any opinion.

Due to the demographics of this site, most people will go "nutswinger" on any gains that the vendor will show and not question it. Most members on here are consumers.

Price will increase the overall cost and people will pay, some will, but does the quantity of willing buyers justify the need to invest the initial cost of manufacturing? Companies conduct cost analysis of their products and determine if it is worth it to put the latest and best technology out in the market. Most of the time only big companies can do it, because they can absorb the cost. That is why most companies do not sell the latest and greatest technology.

R&D is expensive, being innovative and taking the initiative is costly. Some risk it and some play it safe, that is why there are companies who go down (small) and some who stay afloat (big).

No disrespect taken, just trying to get the thread back on topic.

Did you know Crower first started to develop cams for the K motor then stopped development and then started again after IPS cams came out?

You talk as if these are big companies. They're not. Most of these companies "cost analysis" probably consists of, "ok, it'll be 400 bucks more per set. That's too much." these are mostly small companies making these cams, with a few exceptions of course. And look, I never said that those companies needed to keep a stock of 8620 cams. They can just make them special order. Hell, most cam makers DO take special orders. Most high end headers are made to order. So what's the loss there? Said cam developer finds a company that is capable of cutting out 8620 cams, said company keeps a line of communication open with them for business.

I hate to tell ya man, but you're just regurgitating common knowledge of business. And ya, the demographic of MOST car sites will cause the nutswinging to ensue on any claim.

And now for the keeping this on topic bit...doesn't ANYONE find it suspicious that Ron was going into the shitter and then all of a sudden he makes these great new cams that "supposedly" just have a metal difference and make more power on the same profile.

And no, I didn't know that about crower.

 

You talk as if these are big companies. They're not. Most of these companies "cost analysis" probably consists of, "ok, it'll be 400 bucks more per set. That's too much." these are mostly small companies making these cams, with a few exceptions of course. And look, I never said that those companies needed to keep a stock of 8620 cams. They can just make them special order. Hell, most cam makers DO take special orders. Most high end headers are made to order. So what's the loss there? Said cam developer finds a company that is capable of cutting out 8620 cams, said company keeps a line of communication open with them for business.

Thank you for the clarification about the 8620s. Your original post sounded like keeping a stock pile of them. I therefore retract my previous statement.

I was also giving a general explanation. Not specific to the companies on this forum.

I hate to tell ya man, but you're just regurgitating common knowledge of business...

Well yea duh. So why did you ask the questions you asked?

 

Papadakis in 2003 used 8620 in the AEM car

TOP FUEL 8000 HP cars use 8620 cams and they last 8-10 passes...

Kevin you are really making BS statements... IPS announced 8620 on

01-07-2006, 01:23 AM on a thread on another website,

This piece started out as 3" 8620 roundstock. Profile design is no longer restricted. With this new core it is possible to grind any lift and duration (within reason) for the following orientations:

• Traditional VTEC low speed (2 outer) and high speed (center)
• Single profile on outer lobes
• Single profile (center)
• 1 low speed, 1 high speed (K20A3, K24A1/4)

This core is ideal for professional race teams and discriminating enthusiasts alike who demand the highest quality camshaft material and manufacturing process, engineered specifically for the K-series roller rocker application.

-Ron

way before IPS was in trouble as you call it..

 

Papadakis in 2003 used 8620 in the AEM car

TOP FUEL 8000 HP cars use 8620 cams and they last 8-10 passes...

Kevin you are really making BS statements... IPS announced 8620 on

01-07-2006, 01:23 AM on a thread on another website,



way before IPS was in trouble as you call it..

Are the 8620 cams lighter then the ductile iron cams? That is the only way that it could make more horsepower if the cam profile was exactly the same.

Also, Nikos, I wouldn't talk about why nitro motors use what the parts that they use. I know people who have worked on those teams and there is so much that the common person doesn't know about how they actually work and why they do what they do. I am sure they don't use it because it gives them a horsepower increase, when you make 7000hp and 7800ft lbs, you don't worry about something that can give you an extra couple of hundred horsepower at best. For all that you or I know they could use it because they get the proper wear pattern under the heat and stress of those motors.

 

IPS was in trouble as soon as ron announced he was "closing his doors to the public" because he screwed up too much.

And what are you proving with your post? I never said that 8620 wasn't a better material, I disbelieve the claims of the power they supposedly make over ductile iron. I wouldn't be surprised at SOME power increase, but not what is claimed.

 

You said,

And now for the keeping this on topic bit...doesn't ANYONE find it suspicious that Ron was going into the shitter and then all of a sudden he makes these great new cams that "supposedly" just have a metal difference and make more power on the same profile.

With my post, I am saying the great new cams, were not that new... He started making 8620 in 2005 around the time you became a member here, and I showed you pics he posted on January 2006...

They do make a difference but they are expensive... companies can make more money with the $180/set cams from taiwan.. Honda people are not Porsche people... and will not pay for the best quality... that is a given..

 

I am confident the 8620 on the same profile will make more power because it is like comparing a VHS Tape to a CD. The profile gets translated much better.

You are right, how tough they are is another reason. That is why I said top fuel cars can only do 8-10 passes on them.. needless to say a regular cam, would not last one pass...

Ron from IPS would have no problem letting clubrsx test a set of 8620 against a regular K2.. Of course that would be a lot of work for Chris to form an opinion but he would be willing to do that because after all.. somewhere in clubrsx lies the root of IPS... it was cut while young and managed to flourish somewhere else but IPS doesn;t have a short term memory.

 

continuing from the other thread...

I am confident the 8620 on the same profile will make more power because it is like comparing a VHS Tape to a CD. The profile gets translated much better.

Could you clarify what exactly you mean in this statement? is the implication that the force between the rocker assembly and the lobe on the cam is enough to cause a certain degree of deflection on the lobe itself? And if so, the iron has a greater degree of deflection compared to the 8620 material thus resulting in the claimed power difference between the two materials?

 

explain to me how something done on a CNC machine can be different from material to material.

how do you know that a regular cam wouldn't last one pass? How do you know that a 8620 cam only lasts 8-10 passes? I have a lot of interest in nitro motors and never heard those numbers before.

you say that I can't form an opinion, but you are wrong. I test out parts all of the time to find the best one that I can for what I am working on. you could give me cams from every company out there in a plain box and I would test until I found that one that worked the best for the setup that I was using. Please don't assume that I can't form an opinion based on the company, I don't care about companys when I am building a motor. I can say that I have never tested IPS cams because I have never seen to spend so much money on a cam when there are cheaper ones that will do the same thing.

 

how do you know that a regular cam wouldn't last one pass? How do you know that a 8620 cam only lasts 8-10 passes? I have a lot of interest in nitro motors and never heard those numbers before..

http://www.goarmy.com/racing/nhra_top_fuel_dragster.jsp

It says

Engine: 500-cubic-inch TFX aluminum hemi (8000+ horsepower)
Fuel: Nitro-methane racing fuel (12 gallons per run)
Shafts: Billet steel crankshaft (replaced every 8 runs)
Belts: Gates Belts & Hose
Supercharger: PSI 14-71
Gaskets: Fel-Pro
Heads: Alan Johnson aluminum hemi heads & manifold
Pistons: Venolia
Ignition: MSD dual ignition
Clutch: Automan pneumatic clutch

Jeremy L using crane cams is also running 8620 and they are coming out with street cams too...

 

Well, I can't say for sure when the decision was actually made, but some searching has found that it became public knowledge in at least october of last year. Which means there was 9 months between the cam announcement and the "out of business" or whatever announcement. And apparently, 9 months isn't really alot of time according to you and ron.



Are..........are you serious? You can't even COMPARE cams to media. Holy christ. Here's a question, do you (anyone) know or think that drag cars were always using 8620? I don't think they were, but I don't know.

The root of IPS? Ya, it was called hytech before ron showed up.

If referring to how VHS over time (and use) the quality begins to degrade significantly versus Optical Media storage which is not affected by the amount of times its read (actual laser use not user handling damage like scratches) then I could see the similarities in the comparison.

8620 is Stronger then Ductile Iron is it not? Optical media (CDs, etc) material is stronger then VHS Tape devices and last longer, is it not?

Elaborate on this Hytech/IPS thing please, sounds very interesting!!!

 

Oh I know how VHS and CD's operate. But you just can't make the comparison without far reaching. I don't think that 8620 cams last longer than Iron cams. They may be HARDER material, but that doesn't mean it's stronger necessarily. Increasing the strength of a metal "normally" decreases the amount of flex it can have. We know that cam shafts do not stay straight. The harder a material is the more prone to breaking it is.

Well, let's put it into this...you take a ball, drop it off let's say a two story building. it doesn't break, does it? Now take a cement ball, drop it. It breaks. Making this comparison is the same as VHS to CD.

 

Posted by Seth812 -

:
Originally Posted by K20A2 View Post
so depending on the material and the grain in the material it can actually cause it to be cut different?

yea, different materials machine differently depending on what they are alloyed with. for example, steels higher in chromium or vanadium are much harder to cut.

:
Originally Posted by guu-sama View Post
8620 is Stronger then Ductile Iron is it not? Optical media (CDs, etc) material is stronger then VHS Tape devices and last longer, is it not?

with cams, the issue is more with wear resistance than it is strength. while the cams still need to retain a certain amount of ductility in order to not be too brittle, they also need an adequate surface hardness to resist wear. the advantage to 8620 is that it can be hardened to a certain depth on the surface, but the core of the cam stays ductile enough to resist shock loads.

 

It is unique that our cams are hollow. I can see the strenght advantage to a billet-turned blank. How many times to iron ones fail in K20's though? That would be the more telling answer.

 

after reading all of these pages over the past few weeks has made me question ever going back to k20a.0rg b/c i dont know if I can support a site that is ran by such a d-bag

 

As I said in the other thread, this website is member supported, not vendor supported. We sell parts and make our living and pay for the website that way, we don't have to whore out to sponsors.

I'm really enjoying reading all the info contained here, good discussions.

that is good to hear, we have been around for over 6 and a half years. This website really did pioneer k-series discussion.

It is unique that our cams are hollow. I can see the strenght advantage to a billet-turned blank. How many times to iron ones fail in K20's though? That would be the more telling answer.

I haven't heard of a set failing. I have heard of issues probably caused from installation issues but that is about it.

 

I dont want to junk up this thread but I just want to say thanks to chris for the site Ive been on k20 and crsx is 1000x better everything is layed out very well and the crsx store is the only place that I can order and forgit from, everything has either come on time or early, +great customer support,

 

I dont want to junk up this thread but I just want to say thanks to chris for the site Ive been on k20 and crsx is 1000x better

ClubRSX is an RSX oriented website. I would expect you to fit in here. k20a.org is a swap enthusiast website. Nikos' website doesn't pivot on the dc5 chassis. It pertains to every possible chassis a K can go into. The guys over on that site are true pioneers. Yeah sure Chris has a swap forum but it's dead. If you're serious about doing a k-swap, you won't be hanging out on this site. If you've got an RSX, you won't be frequenting k20a.org. To say it is 1000x better is funny. I have an RSX. I was on this website every day for 3yrs, mostly because I was fixated on the shit Ron Acevedo was doing for the community. But then I decided to do a k-swap into an EG. So gradually, I visited this site less and less over time.



Both sites pertain to different audiences. You will find more k-swap technical information on k20a.org. Chris runs a great store but the store has practically been around since day 1. Sure he wants to help RSX owners out. But don't kid yourself, he started the store to make money. I doubt Nikos had any sponsors when he started k20a.org. I have a hard time believing that ANY forum owner is going to deny sponsors. So knocking Nikos for having vendors is equivalent to discrediting Honda Tuning for printing sponsor advertisements in its magazine. Chris doesn't need or want sponsors. They will cut into his profits. Having sponsors creates competition which leads to better product prices. Here, you only have once choice for parts.

And Kevin, until you can prove that 8620s don't make more power than ductile iron, you should keep your asinine opinions to yourself. I follow your posts and you are constantly adapting your argument to suit the new information that you come across. This thread is a great example...All HYPE. You founded this thread on the premise that 8620s don't make more power. Then towards the end, you state that this isn't about horsepower. Everyone can see that you are simply trying to slander the reputation of IPS.

 

thank you very much for your kind words! I am really glad that you enjoy this website and please let me know if there is anything that I can do to make it better.

 

isnt rotating mass and heat a big power killer with motors, espeically when it comes to the cams, valves, and any other internal rotating components? thats why BMW was working on a Camless Solenoid Valve Engine, to reduce the power loss and increase efficiency. So i bet IF the 8620 cams are lightER enough they can make a negligable difference.

 

I believe that Church Auto tested these cams and the power was a bit more (5to 8hp more) but the big difference was how smooth the transition was going into VTEC. Very seamless transition. I've decided to go turbo, but to justify the cost of the cams is tough for me "personally" but the people that need the best I'd say give it a shot "IF you have lots of money" otherwise stick with the old style. Just my 2 pennies.

 

Ya, they were done at church. and as an FI guy you would/should be one of the guys that would look into cams MORE than an NA guy. At least, I would imagine (in the K series anyway).

My issue is this, it's not the HP difference that gets me really, because there are WAY too many variables that could have taken place between the original K2 run and the 8620 K2 run to make that 5-8hp difference. The 18ft/lb of torque is what kills me the most. But hell, I could get higher HP and torque readings by lowering my rotor mass on a dynapack (as far as I understand how it all works anyway).

 

Hopefully the people who order the "new" IPS 8260 Cams...Actually get them... :laughat:

 

Hey Mike im going to be in Town July 23rd- August 1st.

 

Cool give me a shout when you get into town. Your car done yet? You driving it down here?:weeeeeeeeee:

 

Nope its not done yet... Im getting antcy... Should be done by August.

 

i didn't think they can make power, a marketing gimmic. But chris did say that the only way 8620 can make power is if it were lighter, taking into account that both cams ahve same specs.

 

One reason that cam makers do not use 8620 is cost-machining costs more than the actual raw material.
The benefit of 8620 has something to do with valve train harmonics and valve motion control. Ron explained it to me once, but it was over my head, mostly.
I witnessed back to back dynos of the iron core vs the 8620, and the 8620 was measurably better.