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8600 rpms and broken rods

11K views 104 replies 39 participants last post by  victor.s  
#1 ·
A fellow board member informed me that constant use of the 8600 rpm rev limit from hondata #4 will break rods ...

this post is mainly for my curiousity ... but I would think that the valve springs/valves would be the first thing to go.

any opinions?
 
#7 ·
goofy said:
what about the 02s wtih their weaker valve springs!?!?!
They aren't "weaker" springs, just a different design. 8600 is not a problem for the stock motor.

And talk of broken rods at 8600 is just silly.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Glimpse said:
They aren't "weaker" springs, just a different design. 8600 is not a problem for the stock motor.

And talk of broken rods at 8600 is just silly.
Talk of broken rods at 8600 is NOT silly at all. it's very possible, and in fact, the rod will more than likely go before anything on your valve train.

High rpm stresses on the bottom end are usually the worst at the top of the exhaust stroke. The piston wants to continue upward while the crank is just starting back down. The rod, rod bolts and wrist pin are in tremendous tension at this point (as is the wrist pin boss on the piston, but this is rarely the first failure point). Its worst on the exhaust stroke because there is no attendant gas pressure (as on the compression stroke) to help slow the piston. This tension is a function of of the piston speed and the rpm. Both are important because the deceleration of the piston is where the highest stresses are. Its usually the rod beam, or the rod bolts that fail first on Honda engines, although it isn't _always_ that way.

We've generally found that most Honda engines are capable of handling 400-500 rpm over stock on a regular basis for street driving. However, there are prices to pay. On the regular F20C, exceeding 9000 rpm on any regular basis will cause valve retainer problems (as we've seen on some race cars which were never taken above 9300 rpm and no overrevs). But the bottom end is fine. On K20A2 engines, cars that exceed 8600 rpm under racing conditions will break a rod within a couple of races - we've seen it happen to three separate race teams such that it has become a defacto standard to keep stock rod K-motors under 8500 rpm for racing purposes.
http://www.s2ki.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=270713&view=findpost&p=5147807

so every day driving is ok, but if you drive it like you stole it and redline at 8600 every day, you're bound to throw a rod eventually.

Oh, and before you argue and say this guy is full of it, you might want to know that this man has more than a hand in developing the hondata flash you all love. he happens to be the owner of the dyno shop where hondata does their Research and Development, and to my knowledge is very active in testing, tuning, and developing products for hondata. From what i've read, he's had quite a bit of experience with the K20 series engine.
 
#11 ·
The stock bottom end is ok until about 9200-9400, its been tested and I've seen proof. The only thing I could imagine happening is some piston ring wear, which could cause some blow-by or slight loss of compression. To be safe, and prevent this, I wouldnt go any higher than 8800 for a comfortable factor of safety.
 
#13 ·
honda troll said:
if that was the case, hondata would have had a greater redline than 8600 for their flash.
Right... That must be why Toda powered RSX's run to 9,000 all day long.

:rolleyes:
 
#15 ·
honda troll said:
i'm doubtful of this. i cannot see the RSX going to 9200 reliably and every day with a stock bottom end.
Thats not every day. That test was done just to see how far they could take it I think. But an extended period of time over 9200 would cause fatigue. Thats why I would stay at 8800 or below, which would be ok for frequent driving.
 
#17 ·
#21 ·
The weakest point on the K20A is the pistons. You have to worry about the pistons crumbling more than anything else at 9000+rpm The stock valve srpings can handle about 9300rpm's before it experiences valve float(on average of course). The stock retainers should be OK for that range too.

It is a fact though...revs kill motors.....if the engine's rev-limit is too high for the set-up.

I would not be concerned with all of this at 8600-8800rpm, if your engine is tuned correctly.


CJ
 
#22 ·
honda troll said:
anyone? anyone using the 9000rpm toda package and redlining their car every day with a stock bottom end?
I redline daily at 9k, sometimes at 9,250. I have been doing so for roughly 15,000 miles.

I know of others who do the same. The bottom end is safe up to 9,500.
 
#23 ·
Glimpse said:
I redline daily at 9k, sometimes at 9,250. I have been doing so for roughly 15,000 miles.

I know of others who do the same. The bottom end is safe up to 9,500.
Ah finally someone who has been doing it for a while! Now i'll feel safe revving to 9k when i get k-pro and cams! :D
 
#26 ·
Glimpse said:
They aren't "weaker" springs, just a different design. 8600 is not a problem for the stock motor.

And talk of broken rods at 8600 is just silly.
Yeah that.
I'd be more worried about valve float between 8500-9000 than I would breaking a rod within the operating range of the engine.